Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-09-2017, 05:42   #46
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: BVI
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,386
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bean Counter View Post
Thanks for all the input. Most responses have reacted to the health issue related to the effect of permeate on the body, which may be minimal.
Spot on

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bean Counter View Post

To me one issue overlooked is the corrosive effect whether by solvent leaching or acidity, on metal components, the brass fittings, metal in the pumps and water heater. metal tanks, soldered fittings etc etc. Our anecdotal experience in this regard is the premature failure of water heater element and a washing machine.
On the subject of water heaters, I have seen quite a bit of empirical evidence that if RO water is used FROM NEW, there is no corrosion in the water heater tanks even if they have no magnesium anode. This is by comparison to boats that use hard water from shore, which will have corrosion in the tanks after a few years if they do not have anodes. In addition, if you install an anode it lasts longer if only RO water goes through that tank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bean Counter View Post

Maybe I will do a little test with new metal hose fittings inserted into 4 beakers 1, RO straight off the membrane 2. RO that has sat in a tank and absorbed CO2 for a while 3 Rainwater 4. RO that has been mineralised.
Great stuff. That may be a useful test but it will miss electrolysis if there is only one metal involved. I would use two different metals connected together (as in a cheap hose clamp that mixes galvanized and stainless steel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bean Counter View Post
A lot of the scientific literature about desalination health impacts is not so much about the lack of minerals but the leaching impact on water supplies, particularly in relation to metals that contain harmful elements (like lead and copper) (Note State of California often has mandated that metal water fittings are labelled as containing harmful elements) I guess if you have an all plastic / rubber system this is irrelevant. Effect of leaching of plastics such as PE or rubber is probably another story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bean Counter View Post
A lot of the scientific literature about desalination health impacts is not so much about the lack of minerals but the leaching impact on water supplies, particularly in relation to metals that contain harmful elements (like lead and copper) (Note State of California often has mandated that metal water fittings are labelled as containing harmful elements)
I know (having worked in the mining business in California!) it is fashionable to make fun of those California warnings but I will not blame those who think that it is crazy to use metal pipes that "love" to receive deposits of whatever gunk there is in the water to later "shed" them very quickly when cleaner water starts flowing through that same pipe.

I know it is difficult to solve this for mains pipes (hence the use of phosphate additives to keep the deposits where they are) but I believe it is criminal to have a First World country use metal water pipes inside the building, when plastic is so much better (provided you keep temperature under 70 or so degrees C in the hot water pipes=

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bean Counter View Post
I guess if you have an all plastic / rubber system this is irrelevant.
IMHO all boats should use plastic pipes.
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 06:40   #47
Registered User
 
CatNewBee's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
Images: 3
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
Spot on


On the subject of water heaters, I have seen quite a bit of empirical evidence that if RO water is used FROM NEW, there is no corrosion in the water heater tanks even if they have no magnesium anode. This is by comparison to boats that use hard water from shore, which will have corrosion in the tanks after a few years if they do not have anodes. In addition, if you install an anode it lasts longer if only RO water goes through that tank.


Great stuff. That may be a useful test but it will miss electrolysis if there is only one metal involved. I would use two different metals connected together (as in a cheap hose clamp that mixes galvanized and stainless steel.




I know (having worked in the mining business in California!) it is fashionable to make fun of those California warnings but I will not blame those who think that it is crazy to use metal pipes that "love" to receive deposits of whatever gunk there is in the water to later "shed" them very quickly when cleaner water starts flowing through that same pipe.

I know it is difficult to solve this for mains pipes (hence the use of phosphate additives to keep the deposits where they are) but I believe it is criminal to have a First World country use metal water pipes inside the building, when plastic is so much better (provided you keep temperature under 70 or so degrees C in the hot water pipes=


IMHO all boats should use plastic pipes.
Plastic has a lot of (yet unknown) issues too. Otherwise it would not be prohibited to dump plastic in the sea There are so many additives to make it UV resistant and softeners to prevent it from breaking... All this stuff is easy and cheep, but not healthy at all.
CatNewBee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 06:55   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: BVI
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,386
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
There are so many additives to make it UV resistant and softeners to prevent it from breaking... All this stuff is easy and cheep, but not healthy at all.
I have spent quite a bit of time working with serious toxicologists and believe that the viewpoint you express above does not match what the evidence in the eyes of people who know and take into account "normal handling and use conditions". If you feed a rat with nothing more than ground plastic then the rat will die, just as if you force the rat to eat lots of salt of drink too much water. If you use for your drinking water plastic pipes that are made for drinking water (and not garden hose) then you will be fine.

This is analog to the talcum powder deal. If a woman sticks an ounce of talcum powder (or an ounce of almost any other material) up into her organs then it is not going to be good for her, but to use that to say that talcum powder is dangerous is another thing.

Meanwhile, those who worry about the *imaginary* danger of using plastic pipes made for drinking water to carry their drinking water are drinking all sorts of *real* rubbish deposited over decades inside their metal pipes that is now being "shed" by cleaner water that is more aggresive. Then we need to add (and drink!)phosphates to stop that....
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 07:40   #49
Moderator Emeritus
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 31,351
Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
+1. I think the negative health effects theorized about RO water are bad science twisted for sales and marketing purposes. If you eat a balanced diet the fact that your drinking water is demineralized is irrelevant.


That is just it, a consumer Marine RO system doesn't appreciably demineralize water, there are plenty of minerals left in it.

Plastic water bottles
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/pr...ottles-humans/

Health wise, my opinion is your better off drinking RO water as opposed to drinking bottled water. But my opinion isn't worth much
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 07:45   #50
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Tellie's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hollywood, Fl.
Boat: FP Athena 38' Poerava
Posts: 3,984
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Aaaa... okay we got to stop this Cruise rumor from spreading like wildfire.

If we cannot run a water maker within 12 miles of shore that pretty much eliminates 95% of the water maker Cruiser usage.

When you look at the science of RO you're filtering out a single molecule of sodium and a single molecule of chloride those are much smaller than bacteria and pathogens that are going to make you sick. You could suck in your anchorage neighbors holding tank effluent and it would not make it into your drinking water as bad as that sounds it's not going to make you sick.
In the light of proper education and stopping cruiser rumors spreading like wildfire, such as eating tacos to get your minerals, I know for a fact that Rich owns a chain of Taco Bells.
Tellie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 07:53   #51
Senior Cruiser
 
newhaul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,220
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
I have spent quite a bit of time working with serious toxicologists and believe that the viewpoint you express above does not match what the evidence in the eyes of people who know and take into account "normal handling and use conditions". If you feed a rat with nothing more than ground plastic then the rat will die, just as if you force the rat to eat lots of salt of drink too much water. If you use for your drinking water plastic pipes that are made for drinking water (and not garden hose) then you will be fine.

This is analog to the talcum powder deal. If a woman sticks an ounce of talcum powder (or an ounce of almost any other material) up into her organs then it is not going to be good for her, but to use that to say that talcum powder is dangerous is another thing.

Meanwhile, those who worry about the *imaginary* danger of using plastic pipes made for drinking water to carry their drinking water are drinking all sorts of *real* rubbish deposited over decades inside their metal pipes that is now being "shed" by cleaner water that is more aggresive. Then we need to add (and drink!)phosphates to stop that....
Three letters BPA!
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
newhaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 07:56   #52
Senior Cruiser
 
newhaul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,220
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellie View Post
In the light of proper education and stopping cruiser rumors spreading like wildfire, such as eating tacos to get your minerals, I know for a fact that Rich owns a chain of Taco Bells.

JT. Glad to hear from you how did you fare ?
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
newhaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 08:07   #53
Sponsoring Vendor
 
Tellie's Avatar

Community Sponsor

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hollywood, Fl.
Boat: FP Athena 38' Poerava
Posts: 3,984
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul View Post

JT. Glad to hear from you how did you fare ?

We did fine, thanks for asking. My front porch faces west and Irma mainly blew west so we sat out on the porch watching it go by. Living down here all my life I've always known not to grow large trees in your yard. The newer neighbors not so much and they are still cleaning up and assessing the damage. But all in all no one hurt. We dodged the direct hit, we can do 130knt winds standing on our head. When it was 185 offshore though I was a bit more than worried. I set up a portable watermaker in my garage for everyone in the neighborhood because we are still under a boil water order. So far the neighbors haven't complained once about minerals.
Tellie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 08:10   #54
Senior Cruiser
 
newhaul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,220
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellie View Post
We did fine, thanks for asking. My front porch faces west and Irma mainly blew west so we sat out on the porch watching it go by. Living down here all my life I've always known not to grow large trees in your yard. The newer neighbors not so much and they are still cleaning up and assessing the damage. But all in all no one hurt. We dodged the direct hit, we can do 130knt winds standing on our head. When it was 185 offshore though I was a bit more than worried. I set up a portable watermaker in my garage for everyone in the neighborhood because we are still under a boil water order. So far the neighbors haven't complained once about minerals.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
newhaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 08:13   #55
Senior Cruiser
 
newhaul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,220
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

I solved the demineralizing issue. Putting in a composting head so I am repurposing the raw water intake and the old tank vent for my watermaker and will mount it in the head.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
newhaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 09:26   #56
Registered User
 
CatNewBee's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2017
Boat: Lagoon 400S2
Posts: 3,755
Images: 3
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

gee - just drink beer....

Or sail north and grab some iceberg's - btw the cleanest water on earth.
CatNewBee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 10:43   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: So Cal
Boat: Lancer 44 Motor Sailer
Posts: 560
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
A flash evaporator is I think done at low temps and a vacuum.
I can see how one of those wouldn't kill pathogens.
So for one of those I can see how maybe that is good advice.
Assuming one works they way I think it does anyway.
When I was sailing on steam ships as 2nd A/E I was responsible for the boilers and the flash evaporators. I always kept the feed water to the evaps as close to 170 degs F. as possible for sanitary purposes. Any higher temp would cause excessive scaling of the heat exchangers. Still had to clean them monthly as heat transfer was reduced and affected output quantity. The product purity was as close to pure as possible to use as boiler feed water and potable water for crew drinking, bathing and galley cooking and washing.

The boilers were super sensitive to any salinity as it would cause carry over into the steam going to main and aux. turbines. Would be catastrophic to the blades. Had to dose boilers with caustic chemicals to control scaling, leaching and corrosion of piping and steam generating tubes. Foster Wheeler 600 PSI plant. I was taught that pure distilled water was called HUNGRY water as it would try to leach out any thing dis-solvable in the pipes.

We always carried a pallet of Gator Aid for the crew as transiting the Panama Canal we would sweat buckets and the water we drank didn't replenish the electrolytes fast enough to prevent severe cramps. I'm thinking most small boat R.O. systems will be O.K. at the level of TDS in the output product.
Diesel Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 12:22   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: BVI
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,386
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
Three letters BPA!
It is all about exposure from a given source.

Give me a real-world example of PEX plastic pipes leading to a sustained (as opposed to first use of a pipe) level of BPA in drinking water that exceeds 20 parts per billion (which is still safe).

Meanwhile millions of people drink water from metal pipes that have all sorts of gunk deposited in them, instead of replacing them easily and cheaply with plastic pipe.

All that said, those who are still worried about BPA exposure from PEX plastic pipes can use PPR plastic pipes as in much of the rest of the world. It is free of BPA, will not build up deposits, etc...
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 12:28   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: BVI
Boat: Leopard 40 (new model)
Posts: 1,386
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
Plastic has a lot of (yet unknown) issues too. Otherwise it would not be prohibited to dump plastic in the sea
You are mixing things. Dumping plastic is prohibited because it lasts a long time (almost for ever). That is undesirable in stuff you throw overboard but is desirable in water pipes.
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-09-2017, 20:51   #60
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Oz
Posts: 1,042
Re: Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

Quote:
Originally Posted by svlamorocha View Post
Spot on


On the subject of water heaters, I have seen quite a bit of empirical evidence that if RO water is used FROM NEW, there is no corrosion in the water heater tanks even if they have no magnesium anode. This is by comparison to boats that use hard water from shore, which will have corrosion in the tanks after a few years if they do not have anodes. In addition, if you install an anode it lasts longer if only RO water goes through that tank.


s.
Is the empirical evidence you refer to published on the net somewhere?
Bean Counter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
health, osmosis, reverse osmosis, water

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anyone used an under sink reverse osmosis unit to purify water FROM FRESHWATER tank botanybay Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 70 19-12-2019 14:50
reverse osmosis product water for servicing batteries ? Shala Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 18 27-11-2016 19:00
Reverse Osmosis Equipment - Sea Water to Fresh Water markmark Cooking and Provisioning: Food & Drink 16 24-01-2015 15:32

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:23.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.