Water Maker / Reverse Osmosis water health

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by westernspirit

I'm with catsketcher the chemistry professor, please show us how RO with low tds is corrosive

It is not corrosive, it's a solvent.
Water is known as the universal solvent, that means most things dissolve in water.
Very, very pure waters ability to dissolve is higher than water with already dissolved solids, try to dissolve sugar in water, initially it dissolves almost immediately, but as the solution nears saturation, it dissolves ever more slowly.
It's as simple as that.

For the same reason absolutely pure water should not be drunk, reason is it will leech small amounts of mineral from your body. A Woman with Osteoporosis for example should not drink lab quality RO water.
Now don't confuse this with desalinator RO units. They remove most of the salt of course, but even then there is plenty of dissolved minerals left, they are not, nor are they meant to produce absolutely pure water.

This is an argument of magnitudes, it's sort of like saying RF is unsafe because if you hold onto the SSB antenna during transmission you will be burnt, so therefore never get close to a cell phone.

[Alberg30Shill]

Originally Posted by tuskie

I'm in agreement with most responses, especially Rich's.

There is a huge commercially driven pseudo - scientific marketing campaign to get consumers to "treat" perfectly healthy town potable water and/or buy bottled water. The later usually coming in the ubiquitous plastic bottles that litter our waterways. Taste comes down to personal preference and experience, but in most first world countries we are so lucky to have good reticulated drinking water. The "need" for treatment centres around the removal of perceived harmful chemicals.

Now this campaign of selective mis-information is targeting the comsumers of some of the world's purest water; us yachties! In this case, there is a "need" to add chemical substances to our water.

Try telling that to the residents of Flint. People's suspicions of tap water is not unfounded.

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Scientifically that's exactly where you get them, from the tacos....

One of the selling points of the remineralization cartridges is that it will balance out the pH. But again that's from 0 to 10 PPM water which isn't the same as desalination water on Marine water makers so it's kind of a moot misapplied selling point.

Originally Posted by Kenomac

BeanCounter,

Run your RO drinking water through a Brita pitcher with a charcoal filter to eliminate the tank taste and you'll be fine.

Most of your minerals come from the food you eat, not the water you drink. Does it look like most of the Navy officers and sailors are wasting away? Use some common sense and stop reading all the nonsense trying to get you to buy something you don't need.

[a64pilot]

You know quite a bit of Boutique bottled water sells for more than gasoline or milk per gallon.
Society is eaten up with ensuring they have and display the "right" consumer articles, drive the right SUV etc.

Vast majority of drinking water is safe, if you think it's not then install an activated charcoal filter, cost less than $10 a month, but don't fall into the bottled water trap. What chemicals does that plastic exude into the water? How does bottled water stay pure, nothing grows in it for a long time?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Alberg30Shill

Try telling that to the residents of Flint. People's suspicions of tap water is not unfounded.

It had nothing to do with RO water. Flint had a lead problem, do your homework next time.

Flint water crisis. (Wiki)

The Flint water crisis began in 2014 when the drinking water source for the city of Flint, Michigan was changed to the Flint River. Due to insufficient water treatment, over 100,000 residents were potentially exposed to high levels of lead in the drinking water. After a pair of scientific studies proved lead contamination was present in the water supply, a federal state of emergency was declared in January 2016 and Flint residents were instructed to use only bottled or filtered water for drinking, cooking, cleaning, and bathing. As of early 2017, the water quality had returned to acceptable levels; however, residents were instructed to continue to use bottled or filtered water until all the lead pipes have been replaced, which is expected to be completed no sooner than 2020.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by AndyEss

How do you reticulate drinking water?

re·tic·u·lat·ed
rəˈtikyəˌlādəd/
adjective
constructed, arranged, or marked like a net or network.

It's the term used in many countries to describe water than comes out of a tap. (= faucet). This water is usually tested (apparently not in Flint, USA) and treated to meet international standards for potable (=drinking) water. It is then pumped, stored and reticulated via a network of pipes.

[AndyEss]

Learn something new every day, thanks.
In the US, it might be called "potable" or "domestic" water.
Tap water is also in common use.
I've always associated "reticulated" with pythons, not of the Monty variety.

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by tuskie

. This water is usually tested (apparently not in Flint, USA) and treated to meet international standards for potable (=drinking) water. It is then pumped, stored and reticulated via a network of pipes.

The lead in Flint's water could not be detected in the distribution network. It is now clear that the lead comes from deposits in the steel pipes inside the houses, which contain lead that came from the lead pipes that connected houses to the distribution pipes in the street. A change in pH of the water caused disolution of those deposits.

[PhiSig1071]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

The lead in Flint's water could not be detected in the distribution network. It is now clear that the lead comes from deposits in the steel pipes inside the houses, which contain lead that came from the lead pipes that connected houses to the distribution pipes in the street. A change in pH of the water caused disolution of those deposits.

That's very interesting. I did not know that, I assumed it was a supply problem.

Anyway, this is a good thread, I don't know much about watermakers, so this has been a good read.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by svlamorocha

The lead in Flint's water could not be detected in the distribution network. It is now clear that the lead comes from deposits in the steel pipes inside the houses, which contain lead that came from the lead pipes that connected houses to the distribution pipes in the street. A change in pH of the water caused disolution of those deposits.

Thanks, I also learn every day. Lead pipes? I thought we learned something about that from the lead (Pb) that ancient plumbers used to line the aquaducts of ancient Rome. ie. lead and drinking water don't safely mix.

My original point about "tap water" was that the addition of chemicals usually makes it safer for human health. Chlorine, for example kills many harmful micro-organisms. Its addition to water supplies has probably prevented billions of people dying from cholera, dysentery and many other diseases. Remove it with a carbon filter prior to drinking by all means, but don't lose sight of it's importance. Likewise, RO water may be vulnerable to biological contamination if incorrectly stored or stored for long periods without such chemical inhibitors.

[mark_morwood]

Originally Posted by tuskie

My original point about "tap water" was that the addition of chemicals usually makes it safer for human health. Chlorine, for example kills many harmful micro-organisms. Its addition to water supplies has probably prevented billions of people dying from cholera, dysentery and many other diseases. Remove it with a carbon filter prior to drinking by all means, but don't lose sight of it's importance. Likewise, RO water may be vulnerable to biological contamination if incorrectly stored or stored for long periods without such chemical inhibitors.

Just be careful with adding chlorine if you are using tank water to flush the membrane at the end of running the watermaker or at regular intervals while not in use (the automatic Spectra units are set up to do this). The membranes really do not like chlorine. There should be a carbon filter on the flush line to prevent any issue, but I'd still be cautious with chlorine.

Mark.

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by westernspirit

I'm with catsketcher the chemistry professor, please show us how RO with low tds is corrosive

RO removes "solids" but not disolved gases. CO2 turns into carbonic acid that gives low pH.

Leave an acid in there when you have removed much of the buffer there was and there you have it.

You can easily fix this running the water through a canister with limestone. Yes, I know that we miners want to use rocks for everything!

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

The amount of minerals we derive from drinking water is minuscule compared to the amount we derive from food. further, your kidneys will regulate the amount of salts in your body very well, unless you are drinking gallons of water/day. Consider as well that many municipal supplies have less TDS than the water that your watermaker provides. See page 10 of the attached PDF and read the conclusions at the end. Drink your RO water, eat tacos, be happy.

https://www.wqa.org/Portals/0/Techni...owTDSWater.pdf

+1. I think the negative health effects theorized about RO water are bad science twisted for sales and marketing purposes. If you eat a balanced diet the fact that your drinking water is demineralized is irrelevant.

[CatNewBee]

I think more serious issues are the tanks themselves, they never get emptied and cleaned under way in in warm regions they might get contaminated by bacteria. Especially if you refill them in marinas with local tap water of an unknown source / quality.

[Bean Counter]

Thanks for all the input. Most responses have reacted to the health issue related to the effect of permeate on the body, which may be minimal.

To me one issue overlooked is the corrosive effect whether by solvent leaching or acidity, on metal components, the brass fittings, metal in the pumps and water heater. metal tanks, soldered fittings etc etc. Our anecdotal experience in this regard is the premature failure of water heater element and a washing machine.

Maybe I will do a little test with new metal hose fittings inserted into 4 beakers 1, RO straight off the membrane 2. RO that has sat in a tank and absorbed CO2 for a while 3 Rainwater 4. RO that has been mineralised. A lot of the scientific literature about desalination health impacts is not so much about the lack of minerals but the leaching impact on water supplies, particularly in relation to metals that contain harmful elements (like lead and copper) (Note State of California often has mandated that metal water fittings are labelled as containing harmful elements) I guess if you have an all plastic / rubber system this is irrelevant. Effect of leaching of plastics such as PE or rubber is probably another story.

Any way most may see this as a theoretical debate, as apart from the studies on big community based desalination installations, there seems no solid testing and published results done on small boat units

[svlamorocha]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

A lot of the scientific literature about desalination health impacts is not so much about the lack of minerals but the leaching impact on water supplies, particularly in relation to metals that contain harmful elements (like lead and copper) (Note State of California often has mandated that metal water fittings are labelled as containing harmful elements)

In my experience when I have seen proof of relevant leaching of metals from pipes is not from the pipes themselves, but from deposits left on the pipes when "less pure" water was distributed, which become mobile again when "more pure" water (which is more capable of dissolving things) starts circulating through those pipes. In fact in most cases the lead that is "leached" (I am not sure it is the right term for what actually happens) does not come from lead pipes (which in some places were commonly used to connect the house to the mains in the street) but from lead that moved from those pipes to form a coating in the galvanized steel pipes inside the house.

This is akin to using synt oil in an old engine that always used mineral oil, ie not a problem if you "start from new".