"Very Inneficient Multihulls?"

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by coot

From the catamarans I have looked at, it looks like 40 feet is about the minimum size that can have a reasonable interior. At that point, the usable space looks bigger than a 40 foot mono, but at a dramatically increased cost.

I suspect your thought applies at larger sizes. e.g. compare a 40 foot catamaran to a 50 foot mono, or a 50 foot catamaran to a 60 foot mono. I don't spend much time looking at boats that cost more than a half million dollars, though...

I think this is a bit of market dynamics at work. Let's put aside "design" decisions for a moment. There are probably poorly designed monos and poorly designed multi's in terms of sapce usage. I also understand that when cats get "small" the hull volume suffers accordingly.

I guess what I am focusing on is the 40 foot cat. People say - "Oh, it's too expensive compared to a 40-41 fot mono." But in terms of livable space we may not be comparing apples and oranges.

It might be more fair to compare the 40 foot cat to the 60 foot mono in terms of price.

So, what? You may ask. I guess not much except the 40 foot cat builders, at their price point aren't really competing with 40 foot mono's.

So (long winded story short mode) if you are in the market for a 40 foot mono in terms of price, you are probably no in the market for a 40 foot cat.

I agree with you and think a 38 foot cat is probably the minimum "livable" size. But at that point I think I would be comparing to 50 foot monos. OTOH for a couple I think a 36-38 foot mono is very livable but at that point any comparable volume cat (say 30 feet) is too small in the hulls.

[Lancerbye]

I keep my boat at a marina (in the off season) that has 1000 slips, of those 60% are of the sailing persuasion, of those I think there are less than ten Multihulls. The fact that there are no slips available for multi hulls, kind of dictates the type of vessel we can buy. In the PNW I think many would like to purchase multihulls if moorage was available at an affordable rate.

[delmarrey]

In the Seattle area it's hard enough to find a slip for a 40' mono. Multi's usually will only get the space up close to the ramp and rocks (shallows) or at the very end of a dock finger and they have to compete with the big yacht$ for that one.

This is not a multihull world here! Space is valuable But the fold up trailerable's are picking up popularity.

[Tropic Cat]

I'm one of those guys who actually own a small catamaran. I will agree that a boat my size is definately too small to live aboard at first glance. I will also agree, that a well designed center cockpit mono has an amazing amount of space. Having acknowledged both of these things, I will disagree with the usable space part of this post.

I'm in a marina where there are only two catamarans. The mono guys are always on my boat. Why? My cockpit is 12 feet wide by 7 feet long and I seat 8 comfortably, and have had 12 people seated in a pinch, all having cocktails and all monohull people. Where in your comments to you attribute outside entertaining space in a cat? No one spends time indoors while aboard where we are. Everyone is sitting on their boat, not in their boat.

My second point is that all of these monohull people comment about the space in the interior of my little cat. They love the full berth I have up foward, my head is larger than theirs, I have 6' 5" headroom in the hulls, and my galley space is well thought out. I also have a convertable salon table. It turns into a KING SIZE bed. What more are you looking for in a boat?

A Gemini can seem a bit cramped if you're in the 250 -300 pound weight class. Thinner folks seem to get around just fine on them. (no endorsement for boat quality intended) However they fit in a normal monohull slip, just as my boat does. There are no additional costs involved.

I believe a Catamaran can be a safer boat. I love the redundancy my twin diesels provide, and the stable, dry ride. I have a 600 NM cruising range with both engines running. 1000 mile range if I can run on one engine (flat water). Not many monos can match this.

The last point, is that I don't roll at anchor. When we have a mini regatta, my boat is always the destination after we arrive at the "sailing destination"

I'm going to stop here... I've edited this post four times already. I would imagine, that monohull guys love their boats as much as I love mine...

In short... I do think so.....

Originally Posted by coot

No, I don't think so.

I looked at a bunch of catamarans at the boat show a few years back. I wondered why there were so few catamarans smaller than about 40 feet (12 meters). Then I went in a Gemini that was 10.5 meters (34 feet), and I understood immediately. It was tiny inside. My wife immediately said "We can't even consider this boat because it is too cramped". I don't doubt that the total volume of the Gemini was more than my Catalina 34, but a lot of that volume was in the hulls. It didn't make particularly effective living space.
........... I don't spend much time looking at boats that cost more than a half million dollars, though...

[Ex-Calif]

Rick - I just did some googling on you boat type. Very cool design. I couldn't figure out from online images how the master berth is accessed. It appears to be located on the maindeck forward of the salon table behind a bulkhead. Is it accessed through one of the hulls?

Nice design.

[Tropic Cat]

Yes, through the Starboard hull

[coot]

Originally Posted by rickm505

Where in your comments to you attribute outside entertaining space in a cat? No one spends time indoors while aboard where we are. Everyone is sitting on their boat, not in their boat.

If outside entertaining is a significant portion of your use of the boat, that is a valid consideration. It isn't for me, so I didn't even think of it. The cockpit seems kind of exposed to me, though a canvas enclosure can help make it usable during rain, snow, wind, cold weather, etc.

This is where we all get to stop and think about how the right way to choose a boat is to look at your specific requirements, rather than assuming a one-size-fits-all solution.

My second point is that all of these monohull people comment about the space in the interior of my little cat. They love the full berth I have up foward, my head is larger than theirs, I have 6' 5" headroom in the hulls, and my galley space is well thought out. I also have a convertable salon table. It turns into a KING SIZE bed. What more are you looking for in a boat?

You've seen my example that a Gemini at 35 feet seems small compared to a 42 foot Beneteau. I may not have mentioned that the 40 foot catamarans next door seem larger than my boat.

It would be interesting to see your opinion of how your boat compares to some monos. Do you have a neighbor with a longer boat that has about the same usable space as yours, for example? How big is it?

A Gemini can seem a bit cramped if you're in the 250 -300 pound weight class. Thinner folks seem to get around just fine on them.

Cramped is more than answering the question "can I move in this boat?" It is also an answer to the question of "Do I feel uncomfortable in this boat because of the small spaces I will be in?" I found the latter to be the case when I was considering two people living in a Gemini. I think it would be less of an issue if I were living alone, but I am not.

I believe a Catamaran can be a safer boat. ...

I'm not saying that you shouldn't love your boat, or even that catamarans are not perfectly reasonable boats. I only dispute the claim that there are no conceivable advantages to other designs. Scroll back far enough, and you'll see I was commenting on this:

So what do I see as the mono's advantages? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. OK marina berths are cheaper. That's it.

Steam engines on boats are historical curiosities now. Why? Because there really is no advantage to using them. We still use both gasoline AND diesel. There are advantages to each, but none of those advantages is so great as to eliminate the other from consideration.

There are many manufacturers making both mono and multi hull boats. Are we to assume that a big chunk of both manufacturers and customers are just plain stupid? Or does it make more sense to think that "There are advantages to each, but none of those advantages is so great as to eliminate the other from consideration."?

[44'cruisingcat]

I was expressing my opinion, based on recent experience of sailing and living aboard a cat and a mono. If you don't agree fine. Thats why I said "what do I see as the mono's advantages?" The "I" part refers to me. If you see other advantages, fine, I don't. While it's true a 40 foot mono will usually be cheaper than a 40 foot cat, MY view is that cats still represent better value for money.

[Tropic Cat]

Mark

In my small corner of the world ( East coast of Florida) , people spend their time on deck, not in their boats and we actually socialize. I use a Shadetree Awning over my cockpit. It takes about 20 minutes to erect and is sort of like a tent for boats. Other than sleeping, the only time we are inside is to grab a drink.

Some have said that a Cat is 150% of the usable space of a mono. This may very well be a size issue. When we (we being the monohullers in my marina) try to compare interior space, it's their opinion that I come out about even with a 35-36 foot mono. I'm a very small cruising Cat at 27' LOA. So, I'd say that in the case of my boat, I'm 130% to 133% of an equivalent aft cockpit mono. Then again, like the Gemini, I'm only 14 feet wide, but if I were a 44 foot Cat with a 22-23 Ft beam, that ratio would be higher.

It's interesting to note that I lack the two aft cabins of the Gemini. The Catalac 9M has them in the same hull dimensions. With the Catalac 8M's this space is traded for the optional twin diesels. As a result I have one forward double berth, one single berth in the port hull, and a salon table which converts to either 2 single bunks or one King size berth. In my opinion, this is more than enough for a couple with no children.

In fact Catalpa is the best small cruising catamaran I could find.

[beau]

Ok, I will throw in my ten cents worth.
Catamarans under 40ft are not able to use the space available in a comfortable way because of the narrow hulls and the headroom available on the bridgedeck.
I have found that a properly designed trimaran is more suitable for under 40 ft and much cheaper to build.
Essentially you are building and fitting out ONE hull not two. I still have a waterline length of forty feet for comfort at sea.

I have plenty of room in my boat for two people plus I have been able to have a very large top deck as well.
The floats on my boat are swinging like the "dragonfly" so using smaller marina berths is no problem.
Plus my boat can fit inside a 40 ft shipping container.

Two weeks to go before launching, I have had to replace an inverter that I bought from ebay that doesn't work. and I am waiting on two more sheets of veneer ply.

[44'cruisingcat]

There are several catamarans under 40 feet that are very spacious. (Tasman C35, Spirited 380, Simpson 10.5 and many more) I would say that under about 35 feet it becomes more difficult.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

There are several catamarans under 40 feet that are very spacious. (Tasman C35, Spirited 380, Simpson 10.5 and many more) I would say that under about 35 feet it becomes more difficult.

If you have ever seen inside an Inspiration 10 which was pretty much the production version of the 10.5, it's a bloody Tardis.

I was very impressed at the room in these.

Now if only they were on 40 ft hulls (for performance)

Dave

[schoonerdog]

Tardis, now that's a great name for a boat.

Originally Posted by cat man do

If you have ever seen inside an Inspiration 10 which was pretty much the production version of the 10.5, it's a bloody Tardis.

I was very impressed at the room in these.

Now if only they were on 40 ft hulls (for performance)

Dave

[Jackstee]

Hey Guy's
I agree with Rick
I own a Tardis, it's a Hevenly Twins and only 26 foot. But it seems like double the space I had in our little 24 ft Trident ( Mono)
As we only sail in the med, its socialise in the cockpit or on the for deck.

And she has two completely seperate double cabins aft.

Ride on small cats.

Steve

[Tropic Cat]

Aw... I have an HT 26 in the slip next to me, and her owner is always on my boat!!