Used catamaran suggestions

[jdazey]

Originally Posted by smj

Great advise from a live aboard perspective, but if you only sail 35 days a year wouldn't you want a boat that sails well? Let's be honest, you can attach a 2 story house to a large pontoon boat and it would be the supreme live aboard, but would it even be worth sailing. Layout and livability is a big consideration, but sailing ability and quality of build should also be an important part of the decision......at least for me.


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Thank you, SMJ, for raising this point. People spend 8 hours a day sleeping, but having a comfortable bed is not what drives us to buy sailboats. Sue and I do spend a lot of days at anchor or tied to a dock working on the boat. The days of cruising over the ocean at 10 - 15kts, those few precious hours of sailing at 17, 19, 21+ knots make the rest of it worthwhile.


Cheers,

[Peregrine1983]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Lots of good info from above posters. If you are going to be living aboard a substantial amount of time/full time, speed and upwind performance fade into obscurity when you spend 300 days or more of 365 days at anchor or docked. Of the 35 days at sea most of that (say 66%) will be at 60 - 180 AWA. So buying a cat built for windward performance for the infrequent times it is desired is really loading up on one aspect of a cruising life to the detriment of everything else. For the 300 nights you sleep on the boat at anchor consider a bed that you can exit without waking your partner, rather than clamber over them. Many of the old skinny hulled dagger board cats have poor bedding features. Then in the morning whoever makes the bed does not want it to be a struggle, or just leave it a mess. Then there are other living aboard things that count. If the engines are somewhere inside the cabins, unless the sealing is superb, you will get that burnt oil/diesel whiff. If they are under a bunk, that is a real pain to access. Engines in separate lockers are great to deal with, outboards are OK too in just this aspect (a whole other topic). Most cats have an ok salon, especially for 2 people. The cockpit is the usual place to hang out in the Caribbean. This needs a decent table and space to move around. Walk through transoms are great. The older models had a ring around the cockpit which needs to be clambered over, and so then the Bimini becomes a head banger. The Lavezzi at least had a single walk through section Old models also do not have recessed hatches so are trip hazards. Galley up and down is another consideration, passing stuff from saloon galley to cockpit is easy, passing it up from a hull is a nuisance. So these are the things as examples that you will not realize as issues until you have lived on it for more than a few months.

Lots of truth here. Thanks Beancounter for the liveaboard insights. We currently sleep in our mono's V-berth and getting in and out is tough. A pullman style would still be a big improvement over what we have, but access from both sides would be huge.

Regarding the cockpit, I hear ya. So my question is: Has anyone had an issue with the lack of cockpit coamings on the more modern style cats? In my imagination, if you're surfing in front of big waves (which we've done plenty of in mono's with open transoms) and a wave poops you, your feet just get wet and the water sloshes against the space below the companionway and it's no big deal. If there are no coamings on a cat, a wave could come right up to the sliding door and soak the salon and go downstairs right? Or is it that the because the cockpit on a cat sits higher this is not really a concern? I'm sure my lack of experience cat sailing is showing. I plan to do it soon.

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by Peregrine1983

................................

Regarding the cockpit, I hear ya. So my question is: Has anyone had an issue with the lack of cockpit coamings on the more modern style cats? In my imagination, if you're surfing in front of big waves (which we've done plenty of in mono's with open transoms) and a wave poops you, your feet just get wet and the water sloshes against the space below the companionway and it's no big deal. If there are no coamings on a cat, a wave could come right up to the sliding door and soak the salon and go downstairs right? Or is it that the because the cockpit on a cat sits higher this is not really a concern? I'm sure my lack of experience cat sailing is showing. I plan to do it soon.

Hehehehe; come out with us in 6' seas and you'll love EVERY cat! :-)

[Peregrine1983]

Originally Posted by LeeV

Hehehehe; come out with us in 6' seas and you'll love EVERY cat! :-)

While we love to cruise, I am a big fan of hauling a$$

[smj]

Originally Posted by Peregrine1983

Lots of truth here. Thanks Beancounter for the liveaboard insights. We currently sleep in our mono's V-berth and getting in and out is tough. A pullman style would still be a big improvement over what we have, but access from both sides would be huge.

Regarding the cockpit, I hear ya. So my question is: Has anyone had an issue with the lack of cockpit coamings on the more modern style cats? In my imagination, if you're surfing in front of big waves (which we've done plenty of in mono's with open transoms) and a wave poops you, your feet just get wet and the water sloshes against the space below the companionway and it's no big deal. If there are no coamings on a cat, a wave could come right up to the sliding door and soak the salon and go downstairs right? Or is it that the because the cockpit on a cat sits higher this is not really a concern? I'm sure my lack of experience cat sailing is showing. I plan to do it soon.

I'm guessing it would depend on the design whether the cockpit sits higher or not. Most catamarans are designed to be light and ride on top of the water rather than through them, so the sterns generally rise quickly to the oncoming waves.


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[sailingharry]

You specifically mentioned performance as an objective. Getting objective information on catamaran performance is a challenge. But this site:
Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - Home
provides a lot of really informative objective information on over 1000 catamaran models. It's all calculated stuff, and may or may not completely translate to the real world, but it is a great place to start. It gives SA/D ratios, L/B ratios, handicap numbers (you may not want to race, but handicaps are indicative of performance), capsize winds (high performance boats have lower capsize winds, and vice-versa), various dimensions (in some cases they even list bridge deck clearances!) etc. The site is a lot of fun to dig around on.

Note, I think that the signup (free) is required.

To reiterate my earlier comment on older boats, a FP Casamance from the 1990's has a SA/D of around 25, a modern Lagoon 440 from the late 00's has a SA/D of around 18, and the Lagoon 450 (replaces the 440) also has a SA/D of 18. Big difference!

Another useful site to compare data is sailboatdata.com (this often has a floor plan image, too!).

Harry

[Peregrine1983]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

You specifically mentioned performance as an objective. Getting objective information on catamaran performance is a challenge. But this site:
Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - Home
provides a lot of really informative objective information on over 1000 catamaran models.

Awesome... Thanks. There goes my productivity for the day .

[Peregrine1983]

Originally Posted by smj

I'm guessing it would depend on the design whether the cockpit sits higher or not. Most catamarans are designed to be light and ride on top of the water rather than through them, so the sterns generally rise quickly to the oncoming waves.


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That makes sense. Thanks.

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by LeeV

Hehehehe; come out with us in 6' seas and you'll love EVERY cat! :-)

Tell my wife that! Sailing into NY Harbor at midnight with 6-8' following seas taller than she was, standing in the cockpit did not make her smile. She's forgiven me since then. Sorta. :-)

[Peregrine1983]

Originally Posted by LeeV

Tell my wife that! Sailing into NY Harbor at midnight with 6-8' following seas taller than she was, standing in the cockpit did not make her smile. She's forgiven me since then. Sorta. :-)

Oh, I've been there. Wind against tide under the Verazanno bridge can get seriously gnarly!

[rom]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

You specifically mentioned performance as an objective. Getting objective information on catamaran performance is a challenge. But this site:
Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - Home
provides a lot of really informative objective information on over 1000 catamaran models. It's all calculated stuff, and may or may not completely translate to the real world, but it is a great place to start. It gives SA/D ratios, L/B ratios, handicap numbers (you may not want to race, but handicaps are indicative of performance), capsize winds (high performance boats have lower capsize winds, and vice-versa), various dimensions (in some cases they even list bridge deck clearances!) etc. The site is a lot of fun to dig around on.

Note, I think that the signup (free) is required.

To reiterate my earlier comment on older boats, a FP Casamance from the 1990's has a SA/D of around 25, a modern Lagoon 440 from the late 00's has a SA/D of around 18, and the Lagoon 450 (replaces the 440) also has a SA/D of 18. Big difference!

Another useful site to compare data is sailboatdata.com (this often has a floor plan image, too!).

Harry

It is indeed ! at least one of your SA/D number is totally wrong...

[CaptainGeo]

Take a look at the MaineCat 41

[Peregrine1983]

Originally Posted by CaptainGeo

Take a look at the MaineCat 41

Thanks. I had dismissed these (not 100% sure why) before, but now definitely taking a harder look at them. I did not realize they were on the high performance end with daggerboards etc. The layout is interesting. I love idea of a protected helm. The expanse of flat space is cool as well.

Generally speaking, heavier monohulls are more comfortable in bigger seas. What about cats? Does the same rule apply with heavier tending to be more comfortable?

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by rom

It is indeed ! at least one of your SA/D number is totally wrong...

Curious which one? And why you think so? I mostly use the numbers I pull from multihulldynamics (although sailboatdata does provide much of the same information too), I certainly haven't been calculating anything. But being an engineer, a challenge like that makes me want to go learn more....


Harry

[mcallender]

Originally Posted by travellerw

Island Spirit is a brand that many miss. They are usually priced much better than the big brands and offer a lot. They were built to be cruisers from inception so they have a lot of features not found in other boats.

If you don't over load them, they sail like mad (true of most cats though). They are low to the water with a big rig that allows more sail in higher winds. The unfortunate downside is slamming in certain seas.

Unfortunatley finding one can be difficult as there was only 44 of them built and only like 38 of them left (hurricanes). I just thought I would add it to your list.

I've owned my Island Spirit 37 for 10 years now and I can tell you they are way ahead of their time. Only now I see cat designers adopting the floor plan concepts of the IS. Every year I go to the Annapolis show and never see a cat with the living space of my 37 until I get onto a 45ft or larger. As for sailing, they do sail quite nicely too. They have a bit of a cult following and for good reason. The down side is that they stopped making them in 2006 I think and, as mentioned, there are not a huge number left of this aging fleet...