Used catamaran suggestions

[Sand crab]

Here's something from the Maine Cat Website:


Over the past 20 years, Capt. Ralph Drahos has delivered the majority of our 130 Maine Cats. I often say he knows more about our boats than I do. In addition to mostly East Coast offshore Maine Cat deliveries, Capt. Ralph has added three trans-Atlantic catamaran deliveries, nine deliveries to Hawaii and numerous deliveries up and down the West Coast. I just completed a unique delivery with Capt. Ralph right before Thanksgiving this year from Delaware to Maine. Great experience to learn from a true professional Captain on how to do it right.


In addition there is a MC41 doing or used to do charters in the South Pacific and they are now in New Zealand. They say they have done 25,000 miles in her. TabbyCat is the name of the boat and they used the same name when they used to post here. They have a blog:
https://www.sailblogs.com/member/tabbycat/gallery/39344



I see the water at 80 gallons for the MC38 and 120 for the MC41. Perhaps it was 40 gallons per tank in each hull?

[smj]

Originally Posted by Peregrine1983

Thank you. Looks beautiful, but are the Mainecats really long distance cruising boats? The fresh water capacity is only 40 gallons. We'd want 150 at least... In my head I had put the Maine Cats in the same category in my head as some of the Geminis - more geared towards day sailing and short trips, but I may be wrong.

Also, looking at the Maine Cat 38 - it's only 12,500 lbs. My current monohull displaces 22,500 lbs. I'm worried a much lighter boat won't be comfortable for what I want to do with it. That said, I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about cats... EDIT: and I want something that performs.

If you want a cat that performs you want a lightweight Catamaran. I’m surprised as I thought the Maine Cat 38 would have been substantially lighter than 12,500.

[smj]

Here’s a couple to ad to the list.
https://www.yatco.com/vessel/info/22...-united-states
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200.../#.W5FfWcpOmhA

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by smj

If you want a cat that performs you want a lightweight Catamaran. I’m surprised as I thought the Maine Cat 38 would have been substantially lighter than 12,500.

The website specs show an MC 38 at 8100# lightship and 12,400# loaded so 4300#s payload. It's one of the lightest 38' around.



The MC41 claims 12,200 lightship and 19,200 loaded for 7000# payload!! I suspect the performance would suffer just a bit .



The original MC38s were similar to the MC41 in the helm placement and interior finishings. They had outboards but are now showing Torqueedos and lithiums. The helm was moved all the way forward and all the wood trim is at a bare minimum. Now it's really a performance sailboat with limited motoring capabilities. It's really cool if you can live with that.


I think all the MC41s had standard diesels and many were fitted nicely with lots of goodies. An MC40 which was the prototype for the 41 sold this year for less than $300K.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

The website specs show an MC 38 at 8100# lightship and 12,400# loaded so 4300#s payload. It's one of the lightest 38' around.



The MC41 claims 12,200 lightship and 19,200 loaded for 7000# payload!! I suspect the performance would suffer just a bit .



The original MC38s were similar to the MC41 in the helm placement and interior finishings. They had outboards but are now showing Torqueedos and lithiums. The helm was moved all the way forward and all the wood trim is at a bare minimum. Now it's really a performance sailboat with limited motoring capabilities. It's really cool if you can live with that.


I think all the MC41s had standard diesels and many were fitted nicely with lots of goodies. An MC40 which was the prototype for the 41 sold this year for less than $300K.

Always liked the MC’s and 8100# lightship isn’t to bad. No doubt if I were to buy a MC 38 it would have the twin outboards. Pretty sure the MC 40 went for closer to $200k than $300k.

[Peregrine1983]

Originally Posted by smj

If you want a cat that performs you want a lightweight Catamaran. I’m surprised as I thought the Maine Cat 38 would have been substantially lighter than 12,500.

Thanks. Maybe I have to reset my expectations about what is light or heavy. 12500 would be a light cruising monohull IMHO.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Peregrine1983

I'd like to hear some opinions on purchasing a 10 year old Lavezzi (or similar) like the one above? Rigging is aging obviously... engines... all the usual monohull stuff, but being new to cats what would we have to look out for?

Having owned a 2006 FP Mahe for a few years I guess I can comment:
FP had osmosis issues in many boats (but not all) in several models (not all). While there is a rumour that they fixed it in 2010 I also read about a 2011 Mahe Evolution that was treated.

Our 2006 Mahe was treated when two or three years old, and has not yet developed any further issues. She is now with a fellow CF member and he hasn't complained.

I would be OK to buy a FP if she has either had a) osmosis treatment under warrantee or b) has been in (warm) saltwater since new and doesn't show osmosis (which makes it very unlikely to develop problems in the future).

However I would hesitate if the boat has a freshwater history, or has been stored out of the water when not in use.


If you have not had a look at the models you are considering I would suggest you spend some time in an area with plenty of cats for sale. The build philosophy differs from builder to builder, which also explains (some of) the weight differences between FPs and for example Lagoons.

I suspect the Lavezzi is build to a similar standard as the Mahe. Some are OK with the open shelfs in the cabins of the Mahe, while others prefer the closed cabinets present in the Lagoons. For example the pile carpet on the walls of the Athena is not within my tolerance levels. So really have a look.


The Bahia is a lot of boat if its just 2 people onboard. For me (read: the admiral) this would be too big, regardless of cost. Why lug around more room than you need?

My personal shopping list would be FP Lipari, Lagoon 380 or 400. Keep her light, add decent sails and folding props and you should see decent performance.
Our 380 in cruising trim does 60-80% of windspeed depending on AWA, up to around 7kn boatspeed. To get above that speed she needs a good push, like 20kn wind


Bridgedeck slamming will be less frequent on older designs with high bridgedeck. Newer designs have lower bridgedecks but try to minimize the impact forces / noiose by using a curved shape underside. I don't know how well that works, as I am not rich enough for newer designs

Special issues to watch out for... on boats with balsa cored decks (Lagoons for example) I'd carefully check the deck hardware for leaks. Brown rust marks on SS nuts & washers inside are a good indicator. If its in a cored area this can be trouble.
Gelcoat Cracks where the bridgedeck meets the hulls indicate stress / flexing.
Tight shrouds at dock but loose on the lee side under sail indicate flexing bridgedeck, but its hard to guess if its too much or OK. At least I don't know a formula.
Check the rudder bearings, but then its not a huge expense (at least when you can do it with the next antifouling haulout)

Not really much, if your surveyor takes care of the structural things.

One last thing: If predictable resale value is of concern stick to the well known brands.
It just takes one bad apple and a blog to trash the name of a smaller brand (spell "Bumfuzzle"). Larger ones survive well (see the FP osmosis lawsuit or the Lagoon sinking lawsuit).

[verb88]

Originally Posted by Peregrine1983

Noted! Thank you. I've got a running list now of boats, which was part of my goal.

FP Cassamance too....

46'
Strong boat
Fast boat

They don't build them like they used too!

[Peregrine1983]

Originally Posted by rabbi

My personal shopping list would be FP Lipari, Lagoon 380 or 400. Keep her light, add decent sails and folding props and you should see decent performance.
Our 380 in cruising trim does 60-80% of windspeed depending on AWA, up to around 7kn boatspeed. To get above that speed she needs a good push, like 20kn wind

Thank you Rabbi for the thorough post. I've always loved the look of the 380. 60-80% of windspeed is fantastic and that's what I'd want on a cat.

What are your thoughts on the 410 instead of the 400? I see 410's well
within my budget. At first glance it looks like the same boat as a 380, but enlarged. Are the 380 and 410 balsa core below the waterline?

[ShellBack89]

If you live in the Northeast take a trip down to Annapolis to the boat show in October. There will be many brokers there than can also offer up suggestions. Good luck!

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by smj

Pretty sure the MC 40 went for closer to $200k than $300k.

You are probably right. I found the old ad and it was listed for $249,000.
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200.../United-States

[Bean Counter]

Lots of good info from above posters. If you are going to be living aboard a substantial amount of time/full time, speed and upwind performance fade into obscurity when you spend 300 days or more of 365 days at anchor or docked. Of the 35 days at sea most of that (say 66%) will be at 60 - 180 AWA. So buying a cat built for windward performance for the infrequent times it is desired is really loading up on one aspect of a cruising life to the detriment of everything else. For the 300 nights you sleep on the boat at anchor consider a bed that you can exit without waking your partner, rather than clamber over them. Many of the old skinny hulled dagger board cats have poor bedding features. Then in the morning whoever makes the bed does not want it to be a struggle, or just leave it a mess. Then there are other living aboard things that count. If the engines are somewhere inside the cabins, unless the sealing is superb, you will get that burnt oil/diesel whiff. If they are under a bunk, that is a real pain to access. Engines in separate lockers are great to deal with, outboards are OK too in just this aspect (a whole other topic). Most cats have an ok salon, especially for 2 people. The cockpit is the usual place to hang out in the Caribbean. This needs a decent table and space to move around. Walk through transoms are great. The older models had a ring around the cockpit which needs to be clambered over, and so then the Bimini becomes a head banger. The Lavezzi at least had a single walk through section Old models also do not have recessed hatches so are trip hazards. Galley up and down is another consideration, passing stuff from saloon galley to cockpit is easy, passing it up from a hull is a nuisance. So these are the things as examples that you will not realize as issues until you have lived on it for more than a few months.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

Lots of good info from above posters. If you are going to be living aboard a substantial amount of time/full time, speed and upwind performance fade into obscurity when you spend 300 days or more of 365 days at anchor or docked. Of the 35 days at sea most of that (say 66%) will be at 60 - 180 AWA. So buying a cat built for windward performance for the infrequent times it is desired is really loading up on one aspect of a cruising life to the detriment of everything else. For the 300 nights you sleep on the boat at anchor consider a bed that you can exit without waking your partner, rather than clamber over them. Many of the old skinny hulled dagger board cats have poor bedding features. Then in the morning whoever makes the bed does not want it to be a struggle, or just leave it a mess. Then there are other living aboard things that count. If the engines are somewhere inside the cabins, unless the sealing is superb, you will get that burnt oil/diesel whiff. If they are under a bunk, that is a real pain to access. Engines in separate lockers are great to deal with, outboards are OK too in just this aspect (a whole other topic). Most cats have an ok salon, especially for 2 people. The cockpit is the usual place to hang out in the Caribbean. This needs a decent table and space to move around. Walk through transoms are great. The older models had a ring around the cockpit which needs to be clambered over, and so then the Bimini becomes a head banger. The Lavezzi at least had a single walk through section Old models also do not have recessed hatches so are trip hazards. Galley up and down is another consideration, passing stuff from saloon galley to cockpit is easy, passing it up from a hull is a nuisance. So these are the things as examples that you will not realize as issues until you have lived on it for more than a few months.

Great advise from a live aboard perspective, but if you only sail 35 days a year wouldn't you want a boat that sails well? Let's be honest, you can attach a 2 story house to a large pontoon boat and it would be the supreme live aboard, but would it even be worth sailing. Layout and livability is a big consideration, but sailing ability and quality of build should also be an important part of the decision......at least for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Thumbs Up]

I don't want the center of the boat to slap in steep chop

You could get something with a center nacelle (like a Prout) and it won't slap in the center. (just off to the sides). But it is true even big cats get "hits" but it's not like slap slap slap as your are going along but more like the occasional hard SMACK!
Fontaine Pajots advertised the use of isophthalic gelcoat and pretty sure that in general don't have many blister problems.
There are also non production boats to consider but you would be an oddball, couldn't join an owners club or read the instruction manual but many of them are very light and stiff (like the one that I am selling). And since it would only cost you a third of the price you could easily afford to buy high performance sails and have pretty good upwind capabilities.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by verb88

FP Cassamance too....

46'
Strong boat
Fast boat

They don't build them like they used too!

You stole my reply! LOL. When we were considering cats (decided as much as we liked a lot about them, we didn't like the "feel"), the Casamance was high on my list. They are old and scarce, but there are a few.


The real point, though, is that in cruising cats, the pre-2000 boats are substantially better performance, at least from a "numbers" standpoint. They are lighter, have more sail area, seem to have better bridge deck clearance (a hard number to research!), and to my eye "look" better -- much less of that condomaran appearance with the associated windage. If you can tolerate the age issue (offset, of course, by a nicer price!), then I really think that they are a better choice. Of course, the better "sailing" characteristics come at the cost of less "living" features.....



I am very fond of the mid-late 90's FP in the 38-46 range, but I think the generalization applies to all of the "cruising" brands, and maybe even to the "performance" brands (look at the Catana branded Bali!).