Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran

[FSMike]

Good points Evans.

[Bulawayo]

Originally Posted by Pieter

Hello friends,

Recently i saw on youtube a film of a Cat in a major force wind (i have to guess around 40-45 knots).. they didnt have any sails up, going with the wind and the waves, and they had this drogue/parachute type ancor deployed. For this first time i finaly had a visual of how this ancor actualy works, and i could also imagine how this would work if you would deploy it from the bow and keep the bow into the wind as if your anchor would be dragging. We already sailed the coast of Brazil, spend a year in the Caribbean, went across to Europe and via Africa back to Brazil on board of our FP40ft.. During this voyage we never were in rough weather so i never thought of it. Now we are planning to go to the Pacific and i plan to prepare to have this item on board. Questions i have for now:
1. What is the difference between a drogue and a parachute?
2. Having read Eric Taberly.. he was always against using those kind of "breaks" especial deployed from the stern..
3. It depends on the situation at hand if you want to deploy from the stern or the bow?
4. Is this a must have on board item?

Thanks for your remarks and insights.

Hello Pieter, This is our personal experience:
We initially had a parachute when we commenced sailing but our experiences were not favourable. We then used a drogue and our foul weather sailing changed for the better. We now have a Jordan drogue, with synthetic/nylon combination and this fits our requirements. I have written before on how well it works and how we deploy it and how we keep it. This was partially responsible for the decision to purchase a Jordan. With a parachute we would delay and delay putting it out as the worse the weather the more reluctant I was to go forward and stream the 'chute and after it was I did not wish to keep going forward to check for chafe or to adjust the lines. Having had a 'chute pulled out of a wave was something that is not easy to forget. That was on a 300ft 20mm nylon line at the time. The 'chute is more able to 'anchor' you in one position with very slow drift. The drogue, from aft, slows us to typically 3 knots forward movement and for this reason you would not stream it from the bows. For use on a cat I thoroughly endorse the use of a Jordan drogue -I have no experience of using one on a mono-hull. Im sure there that there are other devices that shall suffice as well, but my experience of the Jordan has made any other test superfluous. I am happy to provide further info on use, attachment points etc if required. When I bought my Jordan I bought it from Ace Sails, and received excellent service and assistance. We have deployed our drogue several times in severe weather. In an ideal world I suppose you would carry both devices, drogue and 'chute. I have not got any connection with any suppliers, marine or otherwise.

[Don C L]

All great info, thanks! I wonder if anyone who has used a parachute has seen one get pulled out of an upwind breaking wave? I understand the concept but it seems (intuitively only admittedly) that those would be unusually steep waves with a relatively short period. Wish this thing had a blackboard!

[Bulawayo]

Originally Posted by Don C L

All great info, thanks! I wonder if anyone who has used a parachute has seen one get pulled out of an upwind breaking wave? I understand the concept but it seems (intuitively only admittedly) that those would be unusually steep waves with a relatively short period. Wish this thing had a blackboard!

Seen it? Heck, we experienced it! Admitedly we did not actually see it come out of the wave (and I doubt many have) due to the atrocious weather. Ours occurred in the South Atlantic with winds off our indicator. We were advised later that the wind had peaked at over 80 knots - it was certainly scary and I freely admit that. It has been my opinion that conditions like these formed many requirements for my boat, from carrying a drogue to avoiding elevated or exposed helming positions etc.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Don C L

All great info, thanks! I wonder if anyone who has used a parachute has seen one get pulled out of an upwind breaking wave? I understand the concept but it seems (intuitively only admittedly) that those would be unusually steep waves with a relatively short period. Wish this thing had a blackboard!

We have had (several times) largish single element drogues pull out of an upwind wave face, on 300' rodes. The thing fully popped into the air and flew some decent distance before digging in.

My personal sense is that a para anchor would have "tumbled" in those conditions rather than "pull out". I guess it would always have too much water in it to actually "fly" like the drogues can. But it would still loose much of its drag if it tumbled. However I have not seen this happen first hand.

[Bulawayo]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

We have had (several times) largish single element drogues pull out of an upwind wave face, on 300' rodes. The thing fully popped into the air and flew some decent distance before digging in.

My personal sense is that a para anchor would have "tumbled" in those conditions rather than "pull out". I guess it would always have too much water in it to actually "fly" like the drogues can. But it would still loose much of its drag if it tumbled. However I have not seen this happen first hand.

When ours came out of the wave I believe it had collapsed rather than flew. It seemed an eternity before it took hold again and by then I had engaged both foward engines. I had them both running at the time as a precaution. I was concerned that when it did reset that damage would occur to the lines or the strong points. That did not happen. Our multi element drogue has not given us that experience, at least not yet. The fact that the end is weighted also suggests it unlikely to occur.

[Symphony]

I know an experienced sailor with an Amel 53, who regularly single hands NYC to SXM. he has used Jordan Series Drogue several times in Full Storms and swears by the JDS for his Amel.

[REsCat]

Symphony, would you be able to ask him to consider relating some of his experiences using the JSD on here as this thread is Very informative and helps to broaden a very important topic for many on here.

Bob

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

We have had (several times) largish single element drogues pull out of an upwind wave face, on 300' rodes. The thing fully popped into the air and flew some decent distance before digging in.

My personal sense is that a para anchor would have "tumbled" in those conditions rather than "pull out". I guess it would always have too much water in it to actually "fly" like the drogues can. But it would still loose much of its drag if it tumbled. However I have not seen this happen first hand.

I can certainly see how a drogue could be pulled out of or through a wave, but a properly sized and inflated parachute should be pretty much stationary, no?

[Symphony]

Originally Posted by REsCat

Symphony, would you be able to ask him to consider relating some of his experiences using the JSD on here as this thread is Very informative and helps to broaden a very important topic for many on here.

Bob

I'll see where he is now. Eric on Kimberlite - heck, he might already be in the the anecdotal list first mentioned above. Eric is very helpful about sharing his gratitude for the JDS.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Don C L

a properly sized and inflated parachute should be pretty much stationary, no?

We are talking about a para-anchor that has tumbled/collapsed due to wave action. And before you say they should be deep enough to avoid that - lets just remember another little bit of science: "The wave base, which is the depth of influence of a water wave, is about half the wavelength." There is significant rotary water action even 100m below the wave surface in an open ocean wave. That is why water depth so strongly effects the surface shape, because all this energy is forced up by a shallow bottom.

It could happen, seems from anecdotes like it does happen, but I have personally never seen it happen and have no idea about likelihood/probability.

Regarding stationary . . . . properly inflated para-anchor will move (generally) about .25-.8 m/sec, series drogue 1-2 m/sec and single element drogue 2-3.5 m/sec. That's a generalization, depends on drag device size and boat size and wind/water conditions . . . but none of them are really stationary the way a properly set ground anchor is.

[Don C L]

I say we all head to the Southern Ocean for some trials with photos just like Noelex did with the anchor tests!

[akprb]

We carried one across the Pacific and back and forth from NZ to Tonga/Fiji a few times. Never deployed it. Also never sailed on a schedule and picked our weather carefully generally sailing with the storms.

All that being said would be a lot to deploy and retrieve short handed and would have to be pretty bad conditions for us to consider the same.

The advice above all good and sure you'll find your answers. Having the massive bridle onboard and all that rode was comforting if not for use with the parachute then for extra anchor rode in hurricane situation (which we used for Ivan).

All the best!

[kimberlite]

Hi All,
We were in a Hurricane for 36 hours in 100 knot winds and 60 foot seas. If you watch the video on the link in the story, towards the end you will see a helicopter going into a 100 foot wave in the same storm. They were out to recover the body of the dead skipper. It was an unusual night when you hear over the VHF keep an eye out for men in the water--Yeah right--impossible.

Prepare for survival conditions - Ocean Navigator - May/June 2011

I have had the drogue out twice once on my current boat nonstop Ny to Sint Maarten and years ago heading north to Ny from the carib in my Tartan 37. I have made this trip up or back about 35 times.

Jordan developed the drogue and it is the only device to pass Coast Guard tests. A number of people sell the drogue. However, Dave Pelissier from Ace sailmakers worked closely with Jordan and makes the best one.

I have ours packed so that the end with the chain and the bridles are on the top.
we flake the drogue out on the aft cabin top and make sure everything is ok before launching it. It is amazing to watch it work, There is always some drogue in the water.
Fair Winds
Eric
Kimberlite

[kimberlite]

ps the article had it wrong we saw the spit buoy in Bermuda but never entered the Island the trip was nonstop.