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Old 01-06-2020, 21:08   #4441
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
The WEST system epoxy is more than just glue. WEST provides a wide variety of additives, fillers, bonding agents, etc, etc, etc. and can be used in many, many different ways, as a glue and a filler and wood protection coating, etc.

One should really get the book set out by the Gougeon Brothers that developed this epoxy back in 1969 or thereabouts.

actually read this book 9 years ago, and still have it.

I would venture to say that anything properly glued together with the WEST system epoxy is likely going to be stuck forever, but I would like to stress " properly. It is a 2 part epoxy and getting the mix ratio right is important. you can buy a variety of pumps that will give the correct proportion of epoxy and hardener.
So I thought also, why I am dumb founded that this boat cabin deck leaks so much, I fill the deck/concrete paint used as non skid is mainly to fault, but I dunno...

I have been using this product since the 70's and have NEVER experienced a joint failure or any other type of filler failure. NEVER !! NOT ONCE !!

So I thought also, why I am dumb founded that this boat cabin deck leaks so much, I fill the deck/concrete paint used as non skid is mainly to fault, but I dunno...probably improper use, not enough, too thick.. I dunno.

The key is " properly". WEST has so many products that can be added to their epoxy it requires some learning, a lot of learning. You can pick and choose the additives you may need depending on the type of work you do.


Getting back to the plywood repair, since just trying to build the plywood back to it's original thickness is not a structural connection per se, the use of sawdust as a filler is certainly appropriate.

so remove all rot then fill with west and wood dust, 50/50?.... Seems like I saw mix for 3 minutes then add filler and mix for 3 minutes again..

I don't pick a type of sawdust. Whatever wood I'm working with, the resulting sawdust ends up in a jar.
Iron wood it is!!!!


The sawdust acts as a fiber filler, although, should you wish, you can also add a variety of WEST system fillers to your mix as well.
Yes it's like a college chemistry class...

Once you slather this stuff on your plywood, it is not going to go anywhere. After filling all the holes, voids, etc, and then sanding it, you can cover everything with just a plain mix of WEST, much like you would use paint. This will give the plywood a sealer that will prevent water, moisture, etc, from getting into the wood.

The key is planning and preparation. When WEST hardens, it can harden hard as a rock and trying to sand it smooth will be a chore.

Use 10 grinder with sanding disc to get close then filler with micro balloons a to fair, sand with random orbital to smooth seamless fit and finish.. I hope. Sound right?

I've always used the baking sheets whenever I wanted to " fill" a space, as I've never had a problem with it, though other products may do an equitable job.

I want to see this in action,,, seems like again free range sailing has used this technique from time to time. here @ 9.39 ( )

I get the sense you are not as familiar with this product as I am. It requires some learning and on-the-job experience, and you will likely make some mistakes, but that is part of the game. Take your time, read the product brochure, get the book, you can get it online...before you start. WEST is not cheap, so you don't want to waste any in haste.

So, this is how I operate, gather as much information as possible before you start, because you will still need more anyway... Buy more than you think you will ever need, because you will need more anyway, Get it all here, pick a great weather window,, i.e. no rain for 4 or 5 days, Then work efficiently and perfectly for 5 days 12-18 hours a day. Rest re-supply, tinker on simple day projects for a week, then back at it like you have never seen someone work.. Mainly, because I have gone over it in my head 18,000 times and thought about just about every avenue and a coarse of action for every turn out maybe 12-15 turns. This allows for not necessarily fast work, but highly efficient work, which gets the job done. Our first practice project is the two homemade glass over ply composting toilets... this week or next. I am sure those questions will be coming. I am going to try to use design characteristics of the boat, so that we may be more prepared there. If it doesn't work we will just scrap them and try again, if not still we will buy jabsco pump ones.

Since WEST was produced, there are other equitable products on the market now, I'm familiar with some, but my preference is to use WEST. It is a product I know and trust, and no, I'm not a spokesperson for WEST, just very familiar with using it.

Yep, I AM USING WEST... Life lesson #1, when your life is on the line.... use the best no matter the cost. <----had a good DAD....

As a sideline, I built my first boat from the ground up, Back then, in my innocence, I thought I could whip it out in 9 months. Ha, it took close on 3 years to complete. So be prepared to spend a tad more time than what you might think.
Yeah, my hope is to do it in 6 months with all six of us working on it, and maybe some friends here and there. We will see. I think she will be Sail able and safe,,,, good-looking might be another thingy all together. but we will see.


Ok- I have a big question here.... Can I just "Paint the deck with west system epoxy" At $550 per 5 gallons, it nearly the same cost as interlux epoxy primer which I have had good luck with over the years,,, yet. it makes a ton of sense to me to just put another coat of west over the main structure of west. Use the extra slow hardener and mix in pigment? I am probably crazy, but at least you all will get a good laugh in the end...

Time for a Bourbon,

Cheers

James
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Old 02-06-2020, 06:17   #4442
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

WEST when it hardens, gets to be quite smooth. Not an ideal surface for paint or walking on.
You would need to sand the WEST first to key it for the paint to have something to grip too, but I have painted over WEST without any problems, after sanding it. The paint you use is also key here, I'm fond of the one part polyurethane paints, but you can also get 2 part paints, which are a bit tougher, but also more difficult to use.

I like to use the foam brushes for painting, but others prefer a good bristle brush. If I roll the paint, I like to use the foam rollers, but again, a thin nap regular roller will also be fine. Spraying paint is a conversation all of it's own. Foam brushes you just throw away after use, you don't need to clean them. You can get good foam brushes and cheap foam brushes. The one's with the plastic handles are usually the cheap variety.

Painting is an art....there is a technique and method to it that I cannot describe by email. I've known guys that can paint like Picasso, and others that just slop it on.

Regarding the sawdust mix, I just measure about a quarter to half a cup of epoxy and add the sawdust right away and get to work.
You may want to use a thin layer of plain WEST on the plywood first to seal it, let it harden and then apply the sawdust mix. Without being there, I cannot assess what you are doing
WEST sells these tiny brushes that you can use to work the epoxy into hard to reach places. You buy them by the pack, as it is a one use product.
I have also used Q-tips to work WEST epoxy into deep pockets or small holes.

West can set up rather quickly in the container, so I always try to use it as quickly as I can, especially on hot days.

Without being there, it's difficult to assess what you are up against and what you are proposing to do.

Trying to fix or rebuild an old boat can be challenging. Fixing one thing leads to fixing a dozen things.

Seems like you have a handle on it. Don't rush it.
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Old 02-06-2020, 06:37   #4443
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
The WEST system epoxy is more than just glue. WEST provides a wide variety of additives, fillers, bonding agents, etc, etc, etc. and can be used in many, many different ways, as a glue and a filler and wood protection coating, etc.

One should really get the book set out by the Gougeon Brothers that developed this epoxy back in 1969 or thereabouts.

Here's the link:


https://www.westsystem.com/the-gouge...-construction/


Cheers,
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Old 02-06-2020, 06:57   #4444
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

There you go...an online manual...perfect !!!

Explains it a lot better than I can. Off course, it takes pages and pages to do so, but well worth the effort.

My introduction to WEST was thru' another boat builder, who happened to be a master craftsman. Whereas I was initially kinda muddling along with WEST, he was a pro at it and soon had me pointed in the right direction. Nothing like a guiding hand to show you.

It is amazing stuff but requires some learning to use it correctly.
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Old 02-06-2020, 07:00   #4445
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I first used West to construct a curved deck rail out of clear redwood in the eighties. It's still there btw.

I assume you have the metered pumps? Make sure you don't short stroke them because the mixture rate is critical unlike polyester. And when stirring stir well wiping the sides of the container with your paint stick and then stir some more because an improper mix won't set right, it will probably be tacky forever. So stir again. Use those small plastic paint pails or the dairy products tubs. Some will pour the goo out of one container to another because there always seems to be some non-mixed stuff on the sides or bottom. Just let the leftover set up in there and the next day you can pop it out and you're ready to go again. If it doesn't pop out then it wasn't mixed well. You can apply multiple coats while it's wet or tacky but will have to sand or wash the blush out if it sets hard. Use those flexible squeegees for feathering. Let the stuff set up on those too because it will pop off the next day. I'd just use the fillers West makes because the do everything from structural to gap fillers to topcoats for feathering and they are not expensive. Epoxy gets everywhere so have fun. And stir again.
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Old 02-06-2020, 07:03   #4446
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

perfect thank you and @sand crab heck our boat needs epoxy EVERYWHERE, sounds like a match made in heaven. I am putting short, very light edited videos up everyday of the stuff we are doing.. I have the ability to edit way more better (<---- lol :-) , but I really don't have the time, so most things will be poorly lighted, one take, and audio will be rough, but if you can get through all that you will get a 10 to 15 minute video every day of what we have going on... Years ago we thought we were going to monetize and try to make money from this stuff, so there is a patreon account, but this really isn't for that just for fun..

<------ p.s this was actually my wife's idea!!!!

heck to try to stop thread drift I will start this in a new thread..

Here it is; https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...97#post3154297
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:56   #4447
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

yes, strange thing about WEST....it does like perfectly proportioned quantities of epoxy and hardener and a thorough mix, completely unlike fiberglass resin.
I have done very small jobs where I would" count" the number of squirts coming out of the pump, but that was always a hit and miss thing.
Those little pumps that can be placed over a can of epoxy or hardener do work, but not as good as the larger version, where you simply add the epoxy and hardener to the containers. A bit pricey, but if you are doing a lot of WEST work, only way to fly.

and gloves, yep, those plastic throwaway surgical gloves. You can buy those by the box at Home Depot. WEST is tenacious stuff, it can...and will...get into everything..

I follow this thread with interest !!

I made a habit of collecting discarded plastic water bottles, plastic milk jugs, plastic coke bottles, etc. I would cut the bottom 2-3" off of with scissors to make a handy dandy little mixing pot. You can use these several times before they get completely gooped up and thrown away.
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:07   #4448
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

If you haven't run across this little nugget yet, with WEST plain white vinegar is your friend for cleanup. It deals very well with uncured WEST at a fraction of the price of acetone. It can leave a little sticky residue, so a final solvent cleaning is sometimes needed, but it cuts down on that a lot and saves some money (as well as being safer).
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Old 02-06-2020, 11:42   #4449
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

forgot one last thing...

you can purchase WEST in a small quantity. The product comes in two tiny squeeze containers, much like a toothpaste tube, that are joined together. You just snip the top and squeeze and the correct amount of epoxy/hardener will flow out. WEST calls these emergency repair pockets. There are 5 or 6 pockets packaged together.

The packet content amounts to about one squeeze of the plastic pumps.

Very hand to have.
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Old 02-06-2020, 19:38   #4450
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
forgot one last thing...

you can purchase WEST in a small quantity. The product comes in two tiny squeeze containers, much like a toothpaste tube, that are joined together. You just snip the top and squeeze and the correct amount of epoxy/hardener will flow out. WEST calls these emergency repair pockets. There are 5 or 6 pockets packaged together.

The packet content amounts to about one squeeze of the plastic pumps.

Very hand to have.

In the past I have used these in the west system fiberglass patch kit, comes with some micro balloons, wood flour, some glass, gloves, stir stick, cups, and those same packets,,, yes they are really hard to screw up... That is.... unless you put two packets in a cups, mix like hell then add two tablespoons of wood flour, in 90 degree heat... Solo cup melted and total working time was, less that 3 minutes... lesson learned there..


Cheers,

James
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Old 02-06-2020, 21:22   #4451
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

To anwer your question as to whether or not you can paint the decks with WEST instead of Interlux etc) the answer is - NO.

Epoxy is NOT very UV resistant at all, so still needs to be covered with paint or high-UV exterior varnish (on clear timber finishes).

If the surface coating is not cracked up, just sand and repaint. If it's cracked or flaking, sand back to epoxy and repaint. If the sub-surface is bad also, then sand back to bare timber, recoat with epoxy, then repaint. Epoxy should have at least two coats on bare timber to ensure good waterproofing, as paint is ultimately porous to some extent.
Even the best paint surfaces can be damaged either by sun or physical weathering, chafing, so epoxy coating is vital to ensure water/moisture (can be water vapour, remember..??) doesn't get into the ply or timber.
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Old 03-06-2020, 06:17   #4452
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Thank-you Buzzman!!! alas I am going to go ---> There


What is the best Bang for your buck Boat deck paint?<--- MchughV kinda already answered this, sorry just now reading back through,,, Thanks MchughV

To cover epoxy.

Water based

Oil based.

I have had great luck with Rustoleum Boat paint Oil based, seems to stick to everything!!!!

But could a normal oil based or High end house paint be the ticket. Or it there a holy grail boat paint that is of the highest quality and lowest price

Cheers

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Old 03-06-2020, 06:39   #4453
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
yes, strange thing about WEST....it does like perfectly proportioned quantities of epoxy and hardener and a thorough mix, completely unlike fiberglass resin.
I have done very small jobs where I would" count" the number of squirts coming out of the pump, but that was always a hit and miss thing.
Those little pumps that can be placed over a can of epoxy or hardener do work, but not as good as the larger version, where you simply add the epoxy and hardener to the containers. A bit pricey, but if you are doing a lot of WEST work, only way to fly.

and gloves, yep, those plastic throwaway surgical gloves. You can buy those by the box at Home Depot. WEST is tenacious stuff, it can...and will...get into everything..

I follow this thread with interest !!

I made a habit of collecting discarded plastic water bottles, plastic milk jugs, plastic coke bottles, etc. I would cut the bottom 2-3" off of with scissors to make a handy dandy little mixing pot. You can use these several times before they get completely gooped up and thrown away.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
How much is too much to mix at one time... Is it just merely a ratio to amount of epoxy to size of container. I.e. if you want to mix a gallon of epoxy use a 5 gallon bucket, and then 6 paint trays after mix. It seems, I have heard time and time again to mix small and often.

Can you mix with a drill motor and mixing spindle? Should you? Should you not?

I myself had problems trying to mix a bunch in a solo cup. <----I now know (<---- don't you love english) about the cup and heated reaction thingy.. :-) Alas, on the port ama and cabin sides I will have large amounts of surface area to cover. Temp will be in high 80's to 90's (possibly 70's to 80's at night, but then dew point becomes a factor, also) with relatively high humidity (TX weather) Plan to use 205 with the extra slow hardener and/or slow hardener depending on job/ temp/ environment.

So, I guess, another question;

Is it better to work fast and efficient in a dryer environment, or slow and meticulous in a cooler environment that you may have to deal with water from condensation... bugs ( <--- probably not if we cover with the waxy paper) ?

I figure our work flow could be demo and refit in the mornings, have fun/ rest in mid day heat, then work late into the night to glass and epoxy.

I assume it would be best to seal coat the bare wood with thin layer of epoxy before installation, to guarantee 100% encapsulation... (especially the edges) then install?

Remove from high to low, and then build back low to high. I.e. remove rot from cabin top (if any), then sides, then ama deck top, then any stations. Build back in reverse.

Your guys and gals are great!!! Thank-you!!!!!
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Old 03-06-2020, 06:54   #4454
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Epoxy is very particular about ratios. For small amounts of epoxy, I use this:


https://www.fisheriessupply.com/west...poxy-scale-320


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Old 03-06-2020, 06:54   #4455
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
WEST when it hardens, gets to be quite smooth. Not an ideal surface for paint or walking on.
You would need to sand the WEST first to key it for the paint to have something to grip too, but I have painted over WEST without any problems, after sanding it. The paint you use is also key here, I'm fond of the one part polyurethane paints, but you can also get 2 part paints, which are a bit tougher, but also more difficult to use.

I like to use the foam brushes for painting, but others prefer a good bristle brush. If I roll the paint, I like to use the foam rollers, but again, a thin nap regular roller will also be fine. Spraying paint is a conversation all of it's own. Foam brushes you just throw away after use, you don't need to clean them. You can get good foam brushes and cheap foam brushes. The one's with the plastic handles are usually the cheap variety.

Painting is an art....there is a technique and method to it that I cannot describe by email. I've known guys that can paint like Picasso, and others that just slop it on.

Regarding the sawdust mix, I just measure about a quarter to half a cup of epoxy and add the sawdust right away and get to work.
You may want to use a thin layer of plain WEST on the plywood first to seal it, let it harden and then apply the sawdust mix. Without being there, I cannot assess what you are doing
WEST sells these tiny brushes that you can use to work the epoxy into hard to reach places. You buy them by the pack, as it is a one use product.
I have also used Q-tips to work WEST epoxy into deep pockets or small holes.

West can set up rather quickly in the container, so I always try to use it as quickly as I can, especially on hot days.

Without being there, it's difficult to assess what you are up against and what you are proposing to do.

Trying to fix or rebuild an old boat can be challenging. Fixing one thing leads to fixing a dozen things.



Seems like you have a handle on it. Don't rush it.
Ever think of a "vacation" to Galveston/Dickinson TX? Heck you might get to see a tropical storm or hurricane up close... :-) Thank you for you time and all the great wisdom you are passing down. Cheers James
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