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Old 22-11-2017, 08:39   #4051
smj
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by Buzzman View Post
That Kohler boat ;looks like it's compromised on the under bridgedeck clearance also, less than 2ft laden on on or below marks.

Listen / read what designers like Jim have to say about clearance less than 3ft.

And ship plenty of Aspirin - for the pounding....


More than adequate for a 28' catamaran
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Old 22-11-2017, 10:29   #4052
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by owly View Post
None of the small cats have as much bridge deck clearance as one would like. This is mitigated to a significant extent by the fact that the bridge deck begins far back, and the forward edge curves upward. It's kind of a no win situation. You can't have adequate bridge deck clearance, low profile / low windage, and decent head room on the bridge deck. It's an insoluble problem. For a cat to really work out in all respects it needs to be about 45+ feet long. Having the capacity of two full load bearing hulls plus bridge deck space is attractive, at least when in port or at anchor, which is where most boats spend most of their time. A trimaran is like half a cat with two outriggers, or a cat is like two trimaran main hulls joined together. In truth an open bridge deck as Warram used is the only realistic solution to the bridge deck clearance / windage issue. Imagine two Searunner 31 hulls joined together as a cat, or trying to make a bridge deck cabin that spanned the wings. Trimaran designers from the start recognized the wings as not being a "habitable" part of the hull. Catamaran designers are constantly trying to overcome the clearance / standing height / windage equation, and always will be. Interestingly NOBODY lists the bridge deck clearance, loaded or empty in their cat specifications. Measuring on paper based on a diagram that shows waterline, the KD860 only has about 20" of bridge deck clearance. Richard Woods's designs look to be about the same if you lop off the nacelle that hangs down to give standing head room in small areas.

I wonder what the actual loaded bridge deck clearance (min) is on a Searunner 34 or 37? I don't have one to look at.

H.W.


One thing about your analogy, is that the central (only) static load bearing hull of a trimaran, is WAY larger than a single cat’s port or starboard hull only, of the same length.

In boats under 37 or 40’ loa, tris with standing headroom tend to be better boats than cats with bridge deck standing headroom.Click image for larger version

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Cats really come into their own over 40’.

Searunners have far more wing clearance out at the ama connection than next to the main hull. If the OB motor is not on it, and we duck of course, we can and do, push our high bow RIB right through the tunnel, to wash under there.

The 34 has proportionately more wing clearance than the 37, and there were “two” different versions of the 37, regarding wing clearance.

With the A Frame boats, pounding is less of an issue, but you still need to watch loading, for safety reasons.
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Old 22-11-2017, 11:58   #4053
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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... I'm looking at the KD 860 cat..... longingly because they are simply not out there on the used market, and wouldn't be within my reach if they were. 28' long, 2400 lbs payload roomy bridge deck though NOT stand up, roomy hulls with standing headroom, low profile, high clearance, comfortably large aft cockpit, open netting bows, flat bottom with very shallow draft and no keels or centerboard or daggerboards, just horizontal anti vortex panels, and 18' beam.
The reality is that we all have to settle for something, and I really like the Searunners, and the 37 will do what I need.

H.W.
H.W.

Pete Hill has put his stretched (to 10m) KD860 on the market for £45,000.

https://www.junkrigassociation.org/n..._forum/5148448

I.N.
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Old 22-11-2017, 14:40   #4054
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Owly
I agree with everything you. Bridgedeck clearance, head height in bridgedeck, windage (and overall lines/appearance) are a total compromise, and you can't have all three until a cat gets over 40ft.

But even then it's not a guarantee. I have a friend with a 47' Crowther cat. Lovely boat, glass hulls, but has a*crawl space* for access to the hulls from the bridgedeck! And you have to crawl in backwards or you can't turn around to climb down the ladders. Me, I'd have built in an additional (and probably less aesthetically pleasing) "bump" in the deck to enable at least 'crouched' or 'head bowed' access with the room to turn to go down the ladders. But, hey, it's not my boat, and the owner lets me sail on her cocasionally. What can I say?

So the Kohler KD860 boat is a 'reasonable' compromise, but personally I'd prefer a greater clearance underneath, and a 'stepped-up' coachroof over the centre section to provide the extra headroom. LIke a solid pop-top, if you like.

I've always thought Ross Turner's Jarcats, especially the 6m J6 were the closest one could get to a perfect *trailerable* cat - except for the obvious compromise of beam width designed to fit the ridiculously small max.trailer width *allowed* on the roads of 2.55m.

These days, with the cost of overwide loads and permits for same drastically reduced (at least here in Oz), having a beam of 3m or even 4m is not impossible, provided you live close to a boat ramp, say within 10km, and preferably less than 5km.

Using the old school 50% beam rule (i.e. not enough according to todays's designers who tend to go for 80% beam to length ratios) a Jarcat could have been at least 8m in length, and still be *just* 'trailerable with a permit'. Bit narrow for the length though, IMVHO.

But a J6 with a 3m beam, or a J7 with a 4m beam, might in fact have been a proper weapon, as well as being a useful pocket cruiser.

As in life, everything is a compromise.

If money's no object ... well, friends of mine recently purchased a $350,000 Neel 45. Nice boat. Lots of bling. Very 'condo-maran', but at least it sails well.

Me? Envious? Nah....

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Old 22-11-2017, 15:00   #4055
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

And for whatever it's worth, the Orca boat with the twin-mast junk rig looks like a beast, and probably is genuinely woirth the GBP45K being asked. That's about AUS$90K, and I can tell you the last decent ply tri I saw for sale here was AUS$80K - a Farrier Command 10 (33.5').

Although someone in Adelaide is asking AUS$30K for an ancient 1977 Hedley Nicol Wanderer, if anyone's looking for a cheap boat with lots of space....
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/oute...ran/1164242831

I believe the Wanderer is a 35ft boat, but it appears to have at least 600mm (2ft) of underdeck clearance.

Not so sure about the full enclosed cockpit/bridgedeck, but it would make for a pretty cruisy boat.

If I had a lazy $30K lying about I might buy it just for the heck of it.
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Old 22-11-2017, 18:12   #4056
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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H.W.

Pete Hill has put his stretched (to 10m) KD860 on the market for £45,000.

https://www.junkrigassociation.org/n..._forum/5148448

I.N.
One has to ask why? And the answer I get is a combination of factors.... He's tried a half assed version of Paul McKay's Aero Junk, then a soft wing sail, and now a proper Aerojunk (more or less), and this suggests that he is not entirely happy with the performance of the biplane rig. Pete also lost his beloved wife Carly of Oryx... Every sailor's nightmare...... waking up to find your partner lost overboard somewhere in the Indian Ocean. The good memories together, and the nightmare of the loss, are all attached to the boat....... a chapter in his life, perhaps best closed. Those of us who have suffered such loss know the pain we experience when reminded of our loved one, until it finally fades to be replaced by something else, a peace in the knowledge that they are with us and a part of us always, and finally can share our day to day joys and sorrows with them in some small way as if they were still there, and in fact, in a sense they are...... it's called healing, and it's a process we all approach differently. Who could bring a new partner into an environment so full of memories, and is it fair to that person? Pete I suspect is not wired for the solitary existence. Pete is also a builder. Oryx, I believe is at least the third voyaging boat he has built.
Carly's blog, as far as I know is still online. It documents their adventures together, and unfortunately reads like a travelogue, completely lacking in the details that might interest me as far as the boat itself. It is worth reading............

H.W.
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Old 22-11-2017, 19:04   #4057
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by Buzzman View Post
And for whatever it's worth, the Orca boat with the twin-mast junk rig looks like a beast, and probably is genuinely woirth the GBP45K being asked. That's about AUS$90K, and I can tell you the last decent ply tri I saw for sale here was AUS$80K - a Farrier Command 10 (33.5').

Although someone in Adelaide is asking AUS$30K for an ancient 1977 Hedley Nicol Wanderer, if anyone's looking for a cheap boat with lots of space....
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/oute...ran/1164242831

I believe the Wanderer is a 35ft boat, but it appears to have at least 600mm (2ft) of underdeck clearance.
If I had a lazy $30K lying about I might buy it just for the heck of it.
Those are great boats, they are the Searunners of Oz really, built not to break and to carry a load. The originals had the short amas but were stretched there after Vagabond Mk2 came out along with the performance cruiser Cavalier. The Nicol recipe was for beamy main hulls to carry a load with shallow draft and amas set deeper in the water to help lift. This was to maximize payload with shallow draft for the reef. Because of this and to protect the hulls they had skeg keels on all 3 hulls. They were deeper on the performance designs for less leeway to windward. One advantage was they dry out level.
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Old 22-11-2017, 19:12   #4058
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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...Carly's blog, as far as I know is still online. It documents their adventures together, and unfortunately reads like a travelogue, completely lacking in the details that might interest me as far as the boat itself. It is worth reading............

H.W.
Pete's email address is listed at the Junk Rig Assoc. web site link I posted. I've communicated with him in the past, and his was most helpful in answering my questions. The trick is to catch him when he has an Internet connection. Not always easy...

Also, if you join Bernd Kolher's Yahoo group (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/k-designs) you can search for some posts by Pete, maybe around 2012, when he was building ORYX. There he explains some of the rationale for what he was doing in modifying the KD860.

There is a brief Q&A from Pete and Carly regarding ORYX at the very end of this blog. "ORYX" ODYSSEY: BRAZIL: - FOOTBALL MANIA!

I'll try and send you some technical details about ORYX by PM, if they allow attachments.
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Old 23-11-2017, 09:19   #4059
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I received and appreciate the information on Oryx, but for me it's just wishful thinking.... it's well outside my budget. It's better to cruise with what one can afford than "hold out" for the boat one can't afford. I'll probably end up with an SR37 for a number of reasons, though I would like to be able to get by with the 31. It's often been said that the biggest mistake buyers make is to buy too big of a boat, and the second biggest is to buy too small.

H.W.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaginaryNumber View Post
Pete's email address is listed at the Junk Rig Assoc. web site link I posted. I've communicated with him in the past, and his was most helpful in answering my questions. The trick is to catch him when he has an Internet connection. Not always easy...

Also, if you join Bernd Kolher's Yahoo group (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/k-designs) you can search for some posts by Pete, maybe around 2012, when he was building ORYX. There he explains some of the rationale for what he was doing in modifying the KD860.

There is a brief Q&A from Pete and Carly regarding ORYX at the very end of this blog. "ORYX" ODYSSEY: BRAZIL: - FOOTBALL MANIA!

I'll try and send you some technical details about ORYX by PM, if they allow attachments.
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Old 23-11-2017, 18:42   #4060
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by owly View Post
I received and appreciate the information on Oryx, but for me it's just wishful thinking.... it's well outside my budget. It's better to cruise with what one can afford than "hold out" for the boat one can't afford. I'll probably end up with an SR37 for a number of reasons, though I would like to be able to get by with the 31. It's often been said that the biggest mistake buyers make is to buy too big of a boat, and the second biggest is to buy too small.

H.W.


This is the SR34 layout:Click image for larger version

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Old 23-11-2017, 18:45   #4061
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

The best sea bunk when going to windward in a gale, is the settee floor, wedged in with pillows.Click image for larger version

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Old 23-11-2017, 19:05   #4062
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Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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The best sea bunk when going to windward in a gale, is the settee floor, wedged in with pillows.Attachment 159616Attachment 159617Attachment 159618


Click image for larger version

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ID:	159624This is hard to windward in 13 to 15’ seas, and winds steady in the high 30s, gusting to 40, in the DEEP Tongue of the Ocean, with a dangerous reef just 250’ too leeward, off of the Eastern side of Andros, Bahamas.Click image for larger version

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Even sailing locally, in more moderate winds, the Bimini keeps the skin cancer at bay, and dodger makes the ride worth going on. Without this protected central cockpit, she would be a “ride”, but not a home!
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Old 24-11-2017, 09:09   #4063
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Nice boat Mark...........That's a 34 isn't it?

I'm struggling with the whole payload issue. The 31 really doesn't have adequate payload capacity for long term live aboard voyaging, and the 37 is huge. Payload versus size is the reason I was looking at the 860. Bernd claims that his weighed 1400kg hanging from the crane, but that was "without rigging". He also states that 2000kg is a more typical empty weight than the 1800kg he lists. That still leaves a metric ton of payload. I have an aviation background, as so have many ideas for weight control. What I really do not want is an overloaded boat, and that will be an ongoing challenge.

Whatever boat I end up settling on, one of the first challenges will be looking at what I can remove or lighten.
H.W.
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Old 24-11-2017, 09:59   #4064
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Nice boat Mark...........That's a 34 isn't it?

I'm struggling with the whole payload issue. The 31 really doesn't have adequate payload capacity for long term live aboard voyaging, and the 37 is huge. Payload versus size is the reason I was looking at the 860. Bernd claims that his weighed 1400kg hanging from the crane, but that was "without rigging". He also states that 2000kg is a more typical empty weight than the 1800kg he lists. That still leaves a metric ton of payload. I have an aviation background, as so have many ideas for weight control. What I really do not want is an overloaded boat, and that will be an ongoing challenge.

Whatever boat I end up settling on, one of the first challenges will be looking at what I can remove or lighten.
H.W.


This is the 34... Actually, the payload is just marginally less than the 37, and way more than one thinks.

We have cruised her for going on 22 years, with 12 years as full time liveaboard, with NO OTHER home base, carrying tax records, photo albums, tools, etc. plus SCUBA, a huge awning, RIB with 8 hp OB motor, on and on.

One SR34 circumnavigated by way of Cape Horn, with two adults and two kids!

Much of the stuff we carry, like the awning poles, spear guns, 4 fenders, spinnaker bag, garden sprayer shower, view bucket, washing bucket, scrub brushes, RIB pump and accouterments, 12v vacuum cleaner, spare lines, two boat hooks, etc... go in the amas, out of the way, and weigh very little. They just have lots of stinky volume!

You can safely carry 1,000 to 1,500 lbs over the stated payload.

When John Marple’s won the TransPac (on corrected time) in his SR37, he had a large crew, and was similarly over weight.

Almost everyone who cruises the 34, 37, or 40, are 1,000 lbs over those numbers, all loaded for cruising.

The real heavy item, is WATER, and we use a small watermaker to keep our 30 gallons of tankage full. It is almost 30 years old, on the same membrane.

Since we only replace our daily 3 gallons of usage, if it craps out, the tanks are already FULL... so we just take salt water showers UNTILL a new source of water is found. Never happened yet.

Multihulls are not great for cold climate sailing, but for the mid latitudes, the 34 is a perfect choice for a two person circumnavigation, but is “just” large enough.

Payload is not the real issue... For real comfort, a 40’ boat with longer WL, would have a much nicer motion! If you have the money...

I have found that too small a boat, like my 23’ Wharram and SC28’ (when I became “we”), is a bummer, as is too large a boat, due to maintenance expense. The 34 has been the perfect size for us...

Sailing tens of thousands of miles, with thousands on nights on the hook, behind hundreds of islands, in over 20 countries, through many storms at sea, many Click image for larger version

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ID:	159659hurricanes (NOT at sea), over decades. It is a personal choice, though.

We do think like sea gypsy backpackers!
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Old 24-11-2017, 10:22   #4065
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Mark:
I envy you....... You are living the life I'm slowly working towards....... too slowly for my taste, but I'm trying to utilize the time in a positive way. I don't plan to have any other home, or home base. A few relatives who may or may not welcome me.

H.W.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
This is the 34... Actually, the payload is just marginally less than the 37, and way more than one thinks.

We have cruised her for going on 22 years, with 12 years as full time liveaboard, with NO OTHER home base, carrying tax records, photo albums, tools, etc. plus SCUBA, a huge awning, RIB with 8 hp OB motor, on and on.

One SR34 circumnavigated by way of Cape Horn, with two adults and two kids!

Much of the stuff we carry, like the awning poles, spear guns, 4 fenders, spinnaker bag, garden sprayer shower, view bucket, washing bucket, scrub brushes, RIB pump and accouterments, 12v vacuum cleaner, spare lines, two boat hooks, etc... go in the amas, out of the way, and weigh very little. They just have lots of stinky volume!

You can safely carry 1,000 to 1,500 lbs over the stated payload.

When John Marple’s won the TransPac (on corrected time) in his SR37, he had a large crew, and was similarly over weight.

Almost everyone who cruises the 34, 37, or 40, are 1,000 lbs over those numbers, all loaded for cruising.

The real heavy item, is WATER, and we use a small watermaker to keep our 30 gallons of tankage full. It is almost 30 years old, on the same membrane.

Since we only replace our daily 3 gallons of usage, if it craps out, the tanks are already FULL... so we just take salt water showers UNTILL a new source of water is found. Never happened yet.

Multihulls are not great for cold climate sailing, but for the mid latitudes, the 34 is a perfect choice for a two person circumnavigation, but is “just” large enough.

Payload is not the real issue... For real comfort, a 40’ boat with longer WL, would have a much nicer motion! If you have the money...

I have found that too small a boat, like my 23’ Wharram and SC28’ (when I became “we”), is a bummer, as is too large a boat, due to maintenance expense. The 34 has been the perfect size for us...

Sailing tens of thousands of miles, with thousands on nights on the hook, behind hundreds of islands, in over 20 countries, through many storms at sea, many Attachment 159659hurricanes (NOT at sea), over decades. It is a personal choice, though.

We do think like sea gypsy backpackers!
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