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Old 15-07-2017, 19:48   #3811
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Yeah, well, I'm no sparkie so that may be true - I'm only repeating what I recall a "battery specialist adviser" from Century Yuasa Australia told me several yearas ago.

But my memory may be faulty....

And ftr, I'm not "denying" your position that lead acids drawn down to 80% is *one* way to reduce the mass and footprint of an SLA battery bank, but if you do, you end up paying the same for the overall annual replacement of one or more batteries, and will probably end up paying more and having to replace batteries more often.

And having to lug 25kg SLAs into and out of a dinghy (for instance, while anchored out to avoid horrendous mooring fees) is no picnic at any time.

The *point* to "low maintenance" is to minimise the frequency with which mainytenance operations must be performed.

You are suggesting effectively the opposite of this.

The other main issue we haven't discussed in regards to SLA battery banks is sulfation. Batteries not regularly cycled nor kept on maintenance charge can sulphate very quickly indeed.

I myself have been shown batteries less than two years old that were irredeemably sulphated and not holding charge. And these were expensive thick-plate deep-cycle batteries used in an RV situation.

The solution there is to keep a 'maintenance trickle charge' into the batteries while they are not in use, for example, at your slip, at anchor or on your trailer in the shed.

At anchor you need a decent solar PV panel to maintain trickle charge into the bank. This is also useful for preventing sinking due to leaks around thru-hulls, for example, as an auto bilge pump will have a decent amount of charge to rely on and, hopefully, a passerby will notice the stream from the outlet and inform the harbourmaster, dockeeper or owner.

But even if, even if, you use the single 100Ah SLA and 'kill it' by overdischarging, you still have double the weight of battery compared to a lithium 100Ah.

And as I said previously, 12.5kg is a *lot* of freeze-dried food!

QED

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Old 15-07-2017, 21:53   #3812
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Lithium Iron batteries are lighter so they are much more suitable for Trimarans. But they are double the price in New Zealand though coming down in price every year. I am in the process of buying batteries from China direct. Closed cell Gel. They are 70% cheaper to similar batteries here so its a no brainer. Lithium need to be monitored very well with very good electronics. Its these controllers of keeping them in the range keeping good maintenance. If you get it wrong they can cause serious safety issues. There has been many a problem with Lithium.
All the cruisers around the island where I live have Lithium and like to swear by them for all the good reasons but they all have had complications.
So if you have the cash go for Lithium but be prepared for some issues.
This is from my experience from what i have seen around my part of the wood.
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Old 15-07-2017, 22:44   #3813
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Yeah, too true, many lithium DIY-ers have learned the hard way that a BMS is essential, otherwise each individual cell has to be separately charged, and it's easy to overdischarge them and kill them.

It's why EV Power has developed their own BMS, to accurately monitor the charge/discharge of each cell and match them.

But *provided* the BMS doesn't glitch, it should be set and forget - but you pay extra for the experience and the tech.

There's a few tech geeks on the EV forums who have written their own code for their own BMS, but this is strictly "experts only" territory.

I guess it comes down to the compromises you're prepared to live with. Less weight vs higher cost up front (but roughly the same or cheaper over time).

Or lower initial up front cost, but heavier weight and more floor area required.

Like you, everyone I've spoken to who has used LiFePO4 (and it's important to make that distinction) has reported they are happy with their choice.
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Old 16-07-2017, 09:53   #3814
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I haven't checked in much lately guys, as both shipwright the vocation and the avocation has kept me busy...

On Delphys, I have the dodger project stripped and zippers repaired, but it needs larger holes now for the newest generation of Lewmar hatches. Then the primer and paint, and thinner version of Lexan glazing, as the last one @ 1/4" thick, was overkill.

Next, paint inside the cockpit and mount the dodger down. Hopefully we can get in a couple of fall cruises?

In the past, several folks have asked about a paperback version of my anchoring book. Well, it is now out, from Amazon under "Anchoring and Mooring the Cruising Multihull" Kindle e-book, or in paperback. OR... you can find all three at outrigmedia.com.


The AD reads:
from New Bern, NC, shipwright/sailor, Mark Johnson.

Now out in E-Book OR paperback, from Amazon books or Amazon Kindle E-Books...
"Anchoring and Mooring the Cruising Multihull".

And more multihull "lore" from Mark Johnson, is also available at outrigmedia.com:

There is a several hour, audio "physical CD"... with slide show: "Multihull Cruising in the Caribbean".

and ALSO, Mark shares one of the "Conversations with Jim Brown", (the renowned multihull pioneer and designer).

AVAILABLE IN PAPERBACK OR E-BOOK
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Old 16-07-2017, 14:17   #3815
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Mark Johnson
Nice to have you back:
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Old 16-07-2017, 15:00   #3816
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Thanks Ross! I have my huge dodger re-build to fill in all blank spaces, and just finished installing a set of davits and OB motor hoist for friends.
In fall, we head out to see our German Cruising friends (flying), in Tenerife, Canary Islands!

Hope to finish this dodger in time for some cruising, before the cold comes again. [emoji1365]
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Old 16-07-2017, 15:14   #3817
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I'll look up the book, but care to give us a teaser? Such as topics covered, & or, out of the ordinary info.
Thanks
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Old 16-07-2017, 15:16   #3818
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzman View Post
Yeah, well, I'm no sparkie so that may be true - I'm only repeating what I recall a "battery specialist adviser" from Century Yuasa Australia told me several yearas ago.

But my memory may be faulty....

And ftr, I'm not "denying" your position that lead acids drawn down to 80% is *one* way to reduce the mass and footprint of an SLA battery bank, but if you do, you end up paying the same for the overall annual replacement of one or more batteries, and will probably end up paying more and having to replace batteries more often.

And having to lug 25kg SLAs into and out of a dinghy (for instance, while anchored out to avoid horrendous mooring fees) is no picnic at any time.

The *point* to "low maintenance" is to minimise the frequency with which mainytenance operations must be performed.

You are suggesting effectively the opposite of this.

The other main issue we haven't discussed in regards to SLA battery banks is sulfation. Batteries not regularly cycled nor kept on maintenance charge can sulphate very quickly indeed.

I myself have been shown batteries less than two years old that were irredeemably sulphated and not holding charge. And these were expensive thick-plate deep-cycle batteries used in an RV situation.

The solution there is to keep a 'maintenance trickle charge' into the batteries while they are not in use, for example, at your slip, at anchor or on your trailer in the shed.

At anchor you need a decent solar PV panel to maintain trickle charge into the bank. This is also useful for preventing sinking due to leaks around thru-hulls, for example, as an auto bilge pump will have a decent amount of charge to rely on and, hopefully, a passerby will notice the stream from the outlet and inform the harbourmaster, dockeeper or owner.

But even if, even if, you use the single 100Ah SLA and 'kill it' by overdischarging, you still have double the weight of battery compared to a lithium 100Ah.

And as I said previously, 12.5kg is a *lot* of freeze-dried food!

QED

Let me point out a couple of things here.......... One, the pulse deslphator, or which I have several, and which greatly reduces the sulphation issues. Two, your math is flat wrong. An equivalent lead acid battery pack, assuming discharging to 80% charge is 5x the weight of a lithium back, assuming discharging to 20% charge........... How then do you arrive at twice the weight, when you look at discharging a lead acid to 20%. Let's make it simple. Your lead acid pack is 400 lbs if you match it at discharging to 80% charge, which makes the lithium battery pack 80 pounds. Eliminate 3/4ths of the weight, by going to a discharge down to 20%, and you have 100 pounds........Is 80 pounds half of 100 pounds?? no it's 8/10 of 100 pounds. Let's quit playing fast and loose with the numbers!! The advantage I'm offering is the one year 100% free replacement......... You run through a battery in 9 months.........It is replaced at ZERO CHARGE. Instead of an 80 pound battery, you have a 100 pound battery.............That's far different than the picture your are painting. Again, I'm not anti lithium........... I have quite a few lithium batteries. Any time someone starts playing fast and loose with the facts, it gets my hackles up. It's fine to be passionate about battery technology, but it's far better to be realistic. I suggest that YOU go lithium.......... And report back after 10 years. I'll probably try one and then the other. A pair of golf cart batteries or one 12 volt golf cart battery.......replaced FREE within the one year warranty period is very attractive............do you get free replacement of your lithiums after 4 years when they fail, or shell out $1000 to replace them? I'll give you three guesses......... and the first two don't count. Let's cut to the chase here, and dispense with the nonsense. By the way, I own 3 pulse desulphators, and they were about $30 each. They've paid for themselves many times over. I just replaced the battery in my 3 yard Allis Chalmers TL645 loader..... a single 4D battery this year....... It was 15 years old!!! A 28,000 pound machine with a 210 horsepower Detroit Diesel (my conversion). H.W.
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Old 16-07-2017, 15:32   #3819
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Mark Johnson
Your anchoring book is excellent Mark i got the electronic version.
Once you get your dodger sorted please do send in some pics
I always enjoyed your work
If you have any good antifoul ideas please let us know.
I am wondering if there is any easier methods for our wooden vessels.
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Old 16-07-2017, 15:46   #3820
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Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

K.I.S.S. AND HAVING ALL OF THE COMFORTS ABOARD TOO:

A note about watermakers... I go into this and all of my system's logic, in my conversation with Jim Brown, available through Outrigmedia.com

As you long time Searunner thread addicts know... These systems on my boat are now over 21 years old, and the 12V Power Survivor is a few years older, having come off of my previous boat. It still works, on the original membrane, but has had a few three hour "0" ring re-builds.
THEY'RE GREAT!

My systems are the most reliable part of the boat, because they were installed right! If you have neither the time, patience, skill, nor money to do them really carefully, you are indeed, better off without...

We lived aboard full time, with no other home base, for 12 of those 21 years, and our solar array (270W), provides 100% of our power, 95% of the year. They are still at about 95% of when they were new.

Our Trojan L-14 batteries were the most cost effective, and provide 360 AH (but we only use about 35 or 40 AH per day), so they last about 10 years.

We have no problem with cloudy days, unless they are VERY cloudy, and a week of them.

Watermakers are actually best for people with fairly small boats and small water needs, and they SAVE weight!

Big boats can have big tanks!

We only use 3 gallons a day, (including garden sprayer showers and washing hair), and we keep our 30 gallons of tankage full, by running the WM each morning for a few hours.

The batteries are still topped off by noon!

If the WM ever craps out, we have full tanks and just stop showering until we find water ashore.

Our WM has the optional silt removal kit, which helps protect it, and watermakers last longer if run a bit daily, vs a LOT, once a week.

We also have super efficient refrigeration and all the comforts of home, from an entertainment center to inverter, to RADAR, to SSB, to electric windlass... ALL, powered by the Sun, and NONE are relied upon or essential, because there are manual backups for everything important.

At any given point, if our ultra simplistic but very commodious systems crap out, we just go back to what we did before we had them!

So far, only fans, one TV, and lights, have worn out or become obsolete.

To hear more, I explain it to Jim in a more detailed fashion, in a "Conversation with Jim Brown", which you can access through Outrigmedia.com.
http://outrigmedia.com/outrig/

There are also some GREAT Pod Cast available there from Jim, where he tells hour after hour of multihull "lore"!

Btw... I get no proceeds from either of the above. [emoji1365]

For you newer folks, there are detailed explanations of ALL of this, in my old posts on this thread...
Fair winds,
M
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Old 16-07-2017, 16:13   #3821
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Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossad View Post
Mark Johnson
Your anchoring book is excellent Mark i got the electronic version.
Once you get your dodger sorted please do send in some pics
I always enjoyed your work
If you have any good antifoul ideas please let us know.
I am wondering if there is any easier methods for our wooden vessels.


Will do... I wish I had a good antifouling answer!
I have switched from Trinidad hard paint to an ablative 10 years ago, so will stick with ablative. You can cover hard with ablative, but not the other way around.

Previously we got 6 years of use out of "Rainbow copper based ablative", which we painted, ironically, in Trinidad, the country. It was great!

Thing is, we do not have it here, so we used ABC commercial ship ablative, and after 4 years, it is flaking off of itself between the layers.

Perhaps 4 layers was too much for this paint?
It still works, but I wipe the bottom 4 times with SCUBA gear, each summer, wearing a Kevlar glove.

If a really good sail matters to me, I wipe off the hull first, as I have found that a really smooth bottom is faster than a really light weight boat!

Next time, I still can not avoid a week of sanding, because the bottom is now layered, which I hate!

I am in no hurry, so will likely go to 6 years between haulouts again, (2 more years) and try three thin coats of the best Micron ablative, applied with a WEST roller cover (lots of them), to get a sprayed looking smoothness!

No great answers... just avoid being tempted to use ANY of the copper powder loaded epoxy gel coats on the market! None work well, and in my case, it caused a disaster. (Old story in past posts)

Best of luck with your "woodie but goodie" Searunner
M
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Old 16-07-2017, 16:27   #3822
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Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
I'll look up the book, but care to give us a teaser? Such as topics covered, & or, out of the ordinary info.
Thanks


If you look up the E book on Amazon (under kindle E books) if you want the e-book, they let you see quite a bit of the content. Like... Gear options, how to connect up small 1/4" HT chain in a strength compatible way, windlasses, trimaran options for them, bridles, storm tactics, bottom differences, caveats to avoid, etc...

The redundancy at the bottom of the title cover, was my publisher's idea. It makes it pop up to search engines more often.

The paperback book would be at Amazon under books, and is around 12 bucks, and the former is a few bucks and something, I think. You would search Amazon kindle E books for that.

Both are also at outrigmedia.com as well, but for these two and the hard copy 3 hour audio CD (with slide show), about "Multihull Cruising the Caribbean", the outright web page will just link you to Amazon.

I have spent thousands of nights on the hook, and rode out perhaps over 100 VIOLENT thunderstorms, as well as hunkered down for about 20 close or direct hit hurricanes.
Lots of first hand stuff in there!
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Old 16-07-2017, 17:17   #3823
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

One of the better anchoring sections out there was in Mike McMullen's old book, the Chris White book has a overview too. One of the more entertaining multihull cruising books is the one by Thomas Firth Jones which has an anchoring section as well. Thomas is great because he cruised small multihulls that floated on their waterlines and isn't too shy about suggestions to keep them that way.
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Old 16-07-2017, 23:17   #3824
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by owly View Post
Two, your math is flat wrong. An equivalent lead acid battery pack, assuming discharging to 80% charge is 5x the weight of a lithium back, .

Ummm, *my * math is wrong..???

We began with the assumption of a 100Ah battery. A 100Ah Century Yuasa N70 worth AUS$250 weights 25kg

An EV Power 100Ah lithium ferrous phosphate pack weighs 12.5kg

That's "half the weight" in every math textbook I can reach from where I sit.

You can't compare apples with oranges.

If you need 100Ah then you need 100Ah.

And, technicaly speaking, you can only get 80Ah fomr the SLA if you are only drawing it down to 80%, whereas the lithium pack would enable 100% DOD without overly shortening the life cycle of the battery, and still getting 100Ah.

The footprint of both batteries I referred to is roughly the same. Hence the comparison.

The bottom line is, weight for weight, footprint for footprint, on a cost-over-time basis, lithium works out a bit cheaper or, at least, not more than the cost of SLAs.

QED
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Old 16-07-2017, 23:41   #3825
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Owly;
My only qualm about your 80% discharge regime is that it is going to shorten the life of the batteries, and, human nature being what it is the replacement won't be on a schedule but when the batteries fail.
Murphys law being what it is that failure may well be when you most need them, so the potential for further losses, like the boat could be catastrophic.
You seem like the sort of guy who would replace them on a schedule but others may not be so organised.
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