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Old 09-07-2017, 15:19   #3796
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Well it would seem all you guys are really talking about is money. Yes you can build your own boat. yes you can sew your own sails. yes you can build your own watermaker. Yes you can spend as much time as you have available to create your own liveaboard.
But if you want to sail. If you want to sail. If you want to sail. Then you go sailing.
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Old 10-07-2017, 21:33   #3797
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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100Ah Lithium LiFePO4 packs from EV Power are not cheap, weigh around 12.5kg, but you only need one of them, at approx AUS$1500.
Just got an answer to my query to EV Power and they are quoting a 100Ah lithium [LifePO4] battery complete with BMS at $850, but advise needing the $200 BCU PPAK controller as well.

So all in, just over AUS$1000 plus freight, which they estimated at around 10% of the cost, within Oz.

So that's better even than I recalled.
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Old 11-07-2017, 06:02   #3798
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by rossad View Post
Well it would seem all you guys are really talking about is money. Yes you can build your own boat. yes you can sew your own sails. yes you can build your own watermaker. Yes you can spend as much time as you have available to create your own liveaboard.
But if you want to sail. If you want to sail. If you want to sail. Then you go sailing.
I had a friend planning to build a Marples. He was going to harvest the trees, season the wood, make his own veneers all before starting the build. He drew the line at planting the seeds. Needless to say, the boat didn't get built.

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Old 11-07-2017, 08:15   #3799
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I find thinking about the boat as a vehicle instead of a floating home helps trim the fat. You may live on it but the purpose is to go places. For sure there are better platforms for a dock condo than a tri if you need to have washing machines, dishwashers, full time big voltage etc... A barge for the charge.....

I'd suggest making sure lithium batteries and controllers are purposed for the marine environment, can components be sealed etc... as if they fail it could be like lighting a fuse.

And go sailing, get those boats. Rossad means it!
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:23   #3800
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Just got an answer to my query to EV Power and they are quoting a 100Ah lithium [LifePO4] battery complete with BMS at $850, but advise needing the $200 BCU PPAK controller as well.

So all in, just over AUS$1000 plus freight, which they estimated at around 10% of the cost, within Oz.

So that's better even than I recalled.
It seems that over all cost of ownership is approaching parity. The whole lithium / lead thing is unfortunately heavily salted with bias, with manufacturers promoting their products with glowing reviews. 5 times the cost, and about 5 times the life, and 1/3 the weight is about where I seem to be seeing the lithium / lead acid comparison. The main advantages are the far lighter weight and less space, and lack of off gassing. Lithium's can be discharged down to about 20% repeatedly, while lead acid batteries are said to be best kept above 50%. The voltage drop during discharge is significant for lead acid, while lithiums hold their voltage pretty well all the way down. Maintenance of lead acid batteries if you want to maximize life, is a pretty steady chore. All in all things stack up in favor of the lithium battery. There are two concerns here. One is safety. A number of boats have been lost to lithium battery packs as a result of thermal runaway. The technology has improved however, and this probability is small. The original up front cost is high, and one had better budget for replacement along with other items in the maintenance budget....... and that budget is liable to equal or exceed the grocery budget for a full time live aboard cruiser. It isn't all tiki bars and umbrella drinks ;-(. The 30 or so pounds weight savings is essentially free in the long run. It means 30 pounds of something else I can carry.... bicycle for example. Not every weight saving measure is without cost. H.W.
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Old 14-07-2017, 10:06   #3801
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I have listed my boat at East Coast Yacht Sales. The broker is Tim Kohl. The list price is $29k. Tim's number is 401-682-2010.

See the pictures page for pictures of the current state of the boat. Pictures are at https://buildingmytrimaran.shutterfly.com/pictures/1243

If you browse down all the pictures you will see the work that has been done to the boat.

If you are interested in the boat give Tim a call. The boat is in Portsmouth, RI in the Hinckley yard.
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Old 14-07-2017, 10:54   #3802
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by blewett_john View Post
I have listed my boat at East Coast Yacht Sales. The broker is Tim Kohl. The list price is $29k. Tim's number is 401-682-2010.

See the pictures page for pictures of the current state of the boat. Pictures are at https://buildingmytrimaran.shutterfly.com/pictures/1243

If you browse down all the pictures you will see the work that has been done to the boat.

If you are interested in the boat give Tim a call. The boat is in Portsmouth, RI in the Hinckley yard.
Interesting innovations. I like what you did with the smoked plexi portlights with opening ports built in, and the outboard well in the wing is interesting. Does the outboard come up in it's track and fold right into the bottom of the wing under the hinged cover? Looks like some wing structure would have to be removed to allow that?? H.W.
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Old 14-07-2017, 11:20   #3803
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Guys, what are the big difference in interior layouts & space between the 37’ & the 40’er? Especially in terms of dinette options in the stern?As the Searunner builder’s manual states that the stern castle in the 40’ is narrower than the 37’, which has me wondering if it’s ide enough for people to sit across from each other at the table?

For example in my 31’ the max width was about 5’ from side to side at the top of the seat back cushions (measured at 18” or so above the seats themselves). And that made it nigh on impossible for 2 people to sit across from each other at the table, let alone 4.So any insights into this would be helpful.

Also, if you could post pics of your boat’s setup, that would be great! It’s always interesting to see how folks have configured their galleys & dinettes.Ditto the aft “berthing” areas.Whether you converted them to nav areas, or work benches, etc.

Oh, & what do you do to make the boat more liveable in inclement or cool weather? Since having a center cockpit with no enclosed walkway, pretty much sucks in 50 degree weather.Whether it’s raining or not.So it’s easy to get stuck living in one cabin or the other, which kinda’ cancels out the perks of owning a large’ish boat IMO.

Thanks!
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Old 14-07-2017, 11:49   #3804
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Guys, what are the big difference in interior layouts & space between the 37’ & the 40’er? Especially in terms of dinette options in the stern?As the Searunner builder’s manual states that the stern castle in the 40’ is narrower than the 37’, which has me wondering if it’s ide enough for people to sit across from each other at the table?

For example in my 31’ the max width was about 5’ from side to side at the top of the seat back cushions (measured at 18” or so above the seats themselves). And that made it nigh on impossible for 2 people to sit across from each other at the table, let alone 4.So any insights into this would be helpful.

Also, if you could post pics of your boat’s setup, that would be great! It’s always interesting to see how folks have configured their galleys & dinettes.Ditto the aft “berthing” areas.Whether you converted them to nav areas, or work benches, etc.

Oh, & what do you do to make the boat more liveable in inclement or cool weather? Since having a center cockpit with no enclosed walkway, pretty much sucks in 50 degree weather.Whether it’s raining or not.So it’s easy to get stuck living in one cabin or the other, which kinda’ cancels out the perks of owning a large’ish boat IMO.

Thanks!
I would have to agree. Calling it a dinette is a laugh. It's a nice double berth.
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Old 14-07-2017, 12:43   #3805
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I think you guys are expecting too much. While under way there's usually no need for a big dining room. On the other hand at anchor there's plenty of room if you include the cockpit where people like to sit anyway. and heating and enclosed cockpit if but infrequently shouldn't be a big issue. no it's not a Cruisin condo
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Old 14-07-2017, 13:26   #3806
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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I think you guys are expecting too much. While under way there's usually no need for a big dining room. On the other hand at anchor there's plenty of room if you include the cockpit where people like to sit anyway. and heating and enclosed cockpit if but infrequently shouldn't be a big issue. no it's not a Cruisin condo
Nice way to dodge ALL of my questions
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Old 14-07-2017, 15:14   #3807
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Uncivilized..... cool name
These are good questions you have asked. I would like to try and answer some if i can.
The configuration in the stern castle is great if you get it right. I have a 37 SR. There is plenty of room in the back if you taper the seats and construct the table size to work. Its the best area in the boat for me even while sailing and at rest. The views are magic. I have seen it used as a berth but personally i like the dinning in the stern castle.
For warmth i have a diesel heater. Its incredible because the air is piped to the front and the back of the boat. And if you get the cockpit cover right it makes the boat into the genius concept of travel and liveaboard. I know the SR 40 has alot more space than the 37 SR. I think the SR 40 might the safest thing on water.
So i believe the SR 31 is so much different with living aboard its not in the same park.
Meaning the 37 and 40 SR for long extended periods like years its the way to go.
Jeezzzz and i better go .....
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Old 14-07-2017, 17:02   #3808
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

The 31 is a small boat. For a VERY organized couple it can work for coastal cruising Three adults long term would be a challenge.

A good cockpit cover adds another room and makes all the difference.

Getting back to John's SR. That's still a big boat and a great buy for < 30k.
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Old 15-07-2017, 00:30   #3809
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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The whole lithium / lead thing is unfortunately heavily salted with bias, with manufacturers promoting their products with glowing reviews. 5 times the cost, and about 5 times the life, and 1/3 the weight is about where I seem to be seeing the lithium / lead acid comparison. The main advantages are the far lighter weight and less space, and lack of off gassing. Lithium's can be discharged down to about 20% repeatedly, while lead acid batteries are said to be best kept above 50%....... All in all things stack up in favor of the lithium battery. There are two concerns here. One is safety. A number of boats have been lost to lithium battery packs as a result of thermal runaway....
Cuppla issues with the above quotes....

Firstly, I'm quoting manufacturer-supplied stats - international benchmark measurements. So 'direct' comparison is close as you can get without in-field self-testing.

Like comparing car brochures' specifications before driving the cars. It's the best you can do with what's available.

Having said that, I previously quoted the actual cost comparison of LiFePO4 [lithium ferrous phosphate] versus lead acid.

4:1 batteries required to achieve same depth of discharge capacity, which was roughly the same cost. Around $1000.

So *cost* is the same (true like for like on DOD), but the LiFePO4 battery is one sixth the weight, occupies one third of the floor real-estate, and has double the lifecycle [2200 over 1200 cycles at 30% DOD].

The argument presented by owly that you can abuse the SLAs to 80% DOD and simply replace one of the four every 9-10 months is a fallacy - but an unwitting one I suspect - as it is *very* well known in battery-tech circles (including major manufacturer's sales teams) that batteries used in banks, in either parallel or series, *MUST* come from the same production batch, or the 'slight' differnces between batches as to the lead content/plate thickness and energy conversion factor (based on the acid/lead reaction) can rapidly kill older batteries when a newer, different-batch battery is added in.

This is one of the reasons why maintenance of lead acids is so critical.

But, having said that, as Cav2 pointed out, those EV Power batteries better be properly sealed for marine use (which they claim they are) as you won't want anything going wrong with them out on the briny deep.

In a motorboat situation, or even in a large ocean-going monohull, the case for lithium over SLAs is not as clear - what's a bit more lead on a lead sled, after all - whereas it is *very relevant* for multis where weight is so mission-critical.

As I said previously, the difference in mass of the 100Ah battery bank from SLA to lithium is the difference between 100kg of SLAs and 12.5kg of lithium [lifepo4].

And, for the record, LiFePO4 is *the* safest lithium chemistry. They do not self-conflagrate as other lithium based chemistries are known to do.

So be *WARNED* that any lithium chemistry that is *NOT* LiFePO4 is probably not safe on a sailboat, never mind anywhere else. SO any reports of onboard "lithium battery fires" will be related to the differnt lithium chemistry batteries. Not LiFePO4.

The chemistry used in laptops, phones and other 'consumer goods' is designed for that environment, and these 'pouch-type' batteries are well-known to be flammable.

LiFePO4 come in cyclindrical cells that are aggregated to achieve 12V.

Chalk and cheese with pouch-type lithium ion batteries.
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Old 15-07-2017, 06:45   #3810
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I understand your passion for Lithium batteries, and in your passionate advocacy, you cant seem to get past the fact that there are more than two options. The fact that if you discharge lead acid batteries down to 20% charge instead of down to 80% charge, as is typical, you reduce battery weight accordingly to 25% of the weight of a full bank, eliminate the initial cost parity you claim. You are stuck on the idea of a bank of parallel lead acid batteries being the only alternative to your lithium batteries. On the other hand there are very high capacity lead acid batteries (golf cart), specifically designed for deep cycling, and two of these in series is a LOT of battery capacity. You also are passing on an "alternative fact", which in fact is an euphemism for a falsehood. We all know that parallel battery banks need to be replaced together that is the product on experience, and is beyond dispute, however the suggestion that this applies to batteries in series however is an out and out falsehood. I don't know where you acquired this nonsense, but nonsense it is. You've made your case for lithium batteries, and it is a good one, but to support it by making inaccurate comparisons, and one false statement (in which I can only assume you are repeating someone else's falsehood unknowingly), weakens it's credibility. Lithiums have most of the advantages compared to "normal" lead acid battery banks managed in the usual way. I'm simply offering an alternative strategy that can work for some people, and reduces the liabilities of lead acid batteries. Nothing is black and white about this. If it were, there would be no lead acid batteries in boats anymore. H.W.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzman View Post
Cuppla issues with the above quotes....

Firstly, I'm quoting manufacturer-supplied stats - international benchmark measurements. So 'direct' comparison is close as you can get without in-field self-testing.

Like comparing car brochures' specifications before driving the cars. It's the best you can do with what's available.

Having said that, I previously quoted the actual cost comparison of LiFePO4 [lithium ferrous phosphate] versus lead acid.

4:1 batteries required to achieve same depth of discharge capacity, which was roughly the same cost. Around $1000.
make two assumptions
So *cost* is the same (true like for like on DOD), but the LiFePO4 battery is one sixth the weight, occupies one third of the floor real-estate, and has double the lifecycle [2200 over 1200 cycles at 30% DOD].

The argument presented by owly that you can abuse the SLAs to 80% DOD and simply replace one of the four every 9-10 months is a fallacy - but an unwitting one I suspect - as it is *very* well known in battery-tech circles (including major manufacturer's sales teams) that batteries used in banks, in either parallel or series, *MUST* come from the same production batch, or the 'slight' differnces between batches as to the lead content/plate thickness and energy conversion factor (based on the acid/lead reaction) can rapidly kill older batteries when a newer, different-batch battery is added in.

This is one of the reasons why maintenance of lead acids is so critical.

But, having said that, as Cav2 pointed out, those EV Power batteries better be properly sealed for marine use (which they claim they are) as you won't want anything going wrong with them out on the briny deep.

In a motorboat situation, or even in a large ocean-going monohull, the case for lithium over SLAs is not as clear - what's a bit more lead on a lead sled, after all - whereas it is *very relevant* for multis where weight is so mission-critical.

As I said previously, the difference in mass of the 100Ah battery bank from SLA to lithium is the difference between 100kg of SLAs and 12.5kg of lithium [lifepo4].

And, for the record, LiFePO4 is *the* safest lithium chemistry. They do not self-conflagrate as other lithium based chemistries are known to do.

So be *WARNED* that any lithium chemistry that is *NOT* LiFePO4 is probably not safe on a sailboat, never mind anywhere else. SO any reports of onboard &quot;lithium battery fires&quot; will be related to the differnt lithium chemistry batteries. Not LiFePO4.

The chemistry used in laptops, phones and other 'consumer goods' is designed for that environment, and these 'pouch-type' batteries are well-known to be flammable.

LiFePO4 come in cyclindrical cells that are aggregated to achieve 12V.

Chalk and cheese with pouch-type lithium ion batteries.
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