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Old 03-05-2017, 20:32   #3616
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by rossad View Post
The effect on a boat of a jib sail is actually to improve the efficiency of the mainsail. The gap between the two sails is a virtual slot in all the sail area present. That virtual slot is conveniently where the mast is when changing tack.
It is this foresail that is essentially required for the trimaran for any kind of of maneuver performance and safety

You obviously are not familiar with the split junk rig, which has a jib and a slot. Here is a photo of Pete Hill's version of the AeroJunk, on his catamaran Oryx which differs from the flat and the cambered junk rig in that the sail is one piece and lays against a batten cage rather than having battens sewn in. The Junk Rig Association - Illustrations
Here is a photo of Poppy, a Westerly Longbow owned by Slieve McGalliard, the developer of the split junk rig. Sail panels are cambered, and battens are sewn in. Construction details are easy to find. And here is a photo of Fantail, Annie Hill's absolutely beautiful cambered junk rigged Raven 26.
The Flying Tortoise: Junk Rig Sailing Regatta On The Beautiful Mahurangi...
And here is a photo of Blondie Hassler's Jester with it's flat junk rig sail. This is the father of the modern junk rig.

Note that this is a REVERSE progression of junk rig design dating from the early 60's. Each person has pushed the envelope .

The two designs that appeal to me are Slieve's Split Junk rig and Paul McKay's Aerojunk. Both are highly advanced designs in a realm where there are few participants. Both incorporate a jib and a slot. I expect to settle somewhere near 30% as far a jib area. The key here is to keep the aspect ratio relatively low so more sail can e carried without an extremely tall mast. The jib in this case is incorporated into the main sail, sharing common battens, but it is cut to provide the slot effect.

It is a different thought process and mindset from what we are use to. Modern yachts are built to mimic racing boats in most cases, with huge masts, and tall triangular sails, because that is the accepted "standard". Note that Spray was a gaffer yawl. I assume you are familiar with Spray. My concern is NOT top speed......... I could care less about the 20kt claim I read here recently. I'm interested in average speed in all conditions...... the difference between racing and voyaging. While I in no way accept the dire predictions of some, I have little desire to pound along at 20kts on a passage. The key to comfort is to "throttle back". I have no need to prove anything to anybody, competition is not my thing and never has been. I'm hardly immune to the exhilaration of speed. At nearly 62, I still love to slide the corners, and I drove to town at 90 this evening on a narrow two lane highway that I know like the back of my hand. The sheriff is a personal friend of many years, and I knew he would be heading home about that time, and I know his pickup from a great distance. I expect to want to fly a float and push things to the max at times, but my goal is getting there in good order.....not getting there first or fast.

H.W.
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Old 03-05-2017, 21:04   #3617
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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I'm going to edit my post here...I'd put the mast just aft of the bulkhead at the entrance to the head which I'd consider making without openings and avoid all the foil gizmos. The layout I'd change to have the table/ seating area forward closest to the cockpit in the old bunk area so you can also see forward when keeping watch or hanging out. In the dressing room I'd put the galley.

Astern I'd put the bunks in the wing starting with the old galley area with the feet continuing forward under the cockpit. This keeps you from sliding head first into the bulkhead if you crash while asleep.
Astern in the old table area goes the head which will now be in a area of nicer motion and better at sea ventilation. Those bow hatches often have to be dogged down.
Now these are some useful thoughts that appear to be based on real world experience by someone who spends some time in thought...as I tend to do.... "How could I make things better"

My concerns with regard to this configuration are water.......... The stock configuration places the berths forward where presumably the dodger will protect them if he companion way is open.... and of course the galley is forward, which is one of my gripes with the British boats.. Westerly and Macwester and others. The British dont seem to get that a galley need ventilation......... lots of it. The Searunner 31 places the galley in the "spray zone", not a good thing, but moving it forward to the dressing room places it in a zone of extremely poor ventilation...... assuming the forward hatch must remain closed........... There are trade offs to everything. As as singe hander, I can sleep anywhere that suits me........... And in the tropics that may be the cockpit.

Like you, I give these things significant thought.

I've slept in a recliner for over 20 years for several reasons........ I don't anticipate sleeping flat, and that changes the complexion of things.

"Just Makin' the best of a bad situatioin..... reckon I'd do the same if it were me....."



Only time will tell how I finally choose to utilize the space...... an SR37 would be nice, but I'm NOT willing to go there.

H.W.
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Old 04-05-2017, 00:24   #3618
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Well.... being a Searunner kind its hard to stomach a junk rig on a Searunner. Jim Brown would have put one in his plans if he thought it a good idea but all his writings and experience a cutter rig proved correct.
I am not going to come up with science or special logistics cause as far as i know there is not anything available. Maybe for a cat but not for a tri.
This link gives a very good comparison on the mono ... Burmudan Vs Junk Rig
Bermudan rig vs Junk rig - Practical Boat Owner
But the tri gets lift windward and needs that lift from a foresail off the bow. Pointing high is not a trade off . Its essential if you want to get somewhere sooner because that is a safety feature.
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Old 04-05-2017, 04:53   #3619
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Owly.

You are waisting precious time and energy.

Just go for it man!!

Let everyone know how you make out.....
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Old 04-05-2017, 06:09   #3620
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Quote:
Originally Posted by rossad View Post
The effect on a boat of a jib sail is actually to improve the efficiency of the mainsail. The gap between the two sails is a virtual slot in all the sail area present. That virtual slot is conveniently where the mast is when changing tack.
It is this foresail that is essentially required for the trimaran for any kind of of maneuver performance and safety
First, my late friend Don Jordan (inventor of the Jordan Sea Drogue and Loos Tension Gauge) was emphatic about the inefficiency of the slot as to incresing performance of any sailboat. Rather he considered the shape of the luff paramount. To this end he designed a roller furling with a parobolic curve the length of the stay (Under his direction I built a protoype and put it on a J27 for testing.) I did some sea trials and it seemed to work pretty well - alas, Don passed away soon after that so as far as I know nothing has been continued along those lines.

So in theory this new curved leading edge will allow the vesel to point much higher and therefore, in the case of the 31er, would allow greater tacking ability. Unfortunately the junk rig doesn't have a shapely leading edge. Could it?

Junk rig on a 31er. If you move the mast forward with a junk rig it seems to me that the boat will tack but not without some considerable forward motion. ?? No??

I do like the idea of the junk rig though. LOL Maybe because I've spent a lot of years doing things I got absolutely got no business doing! Thinking out of the box has been a favorite (and sometimes costly) pastime of mine!

Junk rig on the 31er? The efficacy might depend on where one is sailing. I generally sail in LIS east to the Cape and Nantucket and around New England. I am guessing that currents, variable winds and close proximity to land requires ease of tacking and decent pointing plus speed. This alone may make the junk rig on the 31er impractical.

Owly idea for the junk rig on the 31er for open ocean sailing seems to me to be just fine.

J
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Old 04-05-2017, 06:32   #3621
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Re: Trimaran - Split Junk Rig

Owly,

It has been done, you might have seen it already but.....

Little Tri Sporting a Split Junk Rig | Small Trimarans
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:04   #3622
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

My sense is that it's far easier to talk, fantasize and claim than to perform. Those who have built and/or sailed Multihulls, especially Searunners, have an edge in this conversation. Owly has repeatedly made his claim. Now, he can elect to repeat his beliefs over and over to win converts, or he can actually begin the process of demonstrating his idea. Put up or shut up seems harshly true, but it will help us to quit theorizing about things that are easy enough to prove. Unless, of course, owly chooses to emphasize his commitment to abstract discussion instead of making some sawdust and sweat actually sway our treasured beliefs. Owly, please go do something so we can use this site for sharing actual experience and improving the craft under actual conditions. You made your point, now prove it.
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:11   #3623
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

J

I've read a number of things regarding the slot effect... pro and con. The fact is that the split junk rig works quite well...... for whatever reason. Likely because it contains two cambered sails instead of one, and the camber seems to be where lift is developed. I'm neither pro nor anti slot.......... I am highly in favor of things that are simple and work well.

You mention ease of tacking as being a necessity for where you sail, suggesting that the junk rig lacks ease of tacking??? Can you tack your cutter rig by merely putting the tiller over and pulling in or letting out the sheet (singular) a bit? Junk rigs often are seen tacking in narrow waters where most sailboats resort to motoring, because it is so easy. No traveler, no winching the sheets, no running backstays to deal with, or deck work involving head sail, no setting preventers........ just put put the tiller over, and when the boom crosses over, let out or pull in sheet to adjust the sheet. The issue about pointing applies only to the flat junk rigs, not the cambered rigs which will point every bit as high as a Bermuda rig. On the other hand the junk rig doesn't seem to be able to sail as fast to windward, though reaching it will probably match the Bermuda Rig, and running they will out sail a Bermuda Rig.
It's not my intention to sell anybody else on trying this, but I find it interesting how many inaccurate and / or outdated views folks hold on the junk rig, and in many cases how completely unwilling they seem to be, when it comes to update those views based on the current state of development. As I previously mentioned, it was not so long ago that I held similarly outdated views on multihulls. Realizing that perhaps those views were wrong or outdated, I spent the time to set myself straight. Ultimately realizing that a trimaran was the best choice for me.

Cruising Ashiki: Why bother with a Junk Rig?

Bermudan rig vs Junk rig - Practical Boat Owner


H.W.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimske View Post
First, my late friend Don Jordan (inventor of the Jordan Sea Drogue and Loos Tension Gauge) was emphatic about the inefficiency of the slot as to incresing performance of any sailboat. Rather he considered the shape of the luff paramount. To this end he designed a roller furling with a parobolic curve the length of the stay (Under his direction I built a protoype and put it on a J27 for testing.) I did some sea trials and it seemed to work pretty well - alas, Don passed away soon after that so as far as I know nothing has been continued along those lines.

So in theory this new curved leading edge will allow the vesel to point much higher and therefore, in the case of the 31er, would allow greater tacking ability. Unfortunately the junk rig doesn't have a shapely leading edge. Could it?

Junk rig on a 31er. If you move the mast forward with a junk rig it seems to me that the boat will tack but not without some considerable forward motion. ?? No??

I do like the idea of the junk rig though. LOL Maybe because I've spent a lot of years doing things I got absolutely got no business doing! Thinking out of the box has been a favorite (and sometimes costly) pastime of mine!

Junk rig on the 31er? The efficacy might depend on where one is sailing. I generally sail in LIS east to the Cape and Nantucket and around New England. I am guessing that currents, variable winds and close proximity to land requires ease of tacking and decent pointing plus speed. This alone may make the junk rig on the 31er impractical.

Owly idea for the junk rig on the 31er for open ocean sailing seems to me to be just fine.

J
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:27   #3624
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Re: Trimaran - Split Junk Rig

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Originally Posted by Redreuben View Post
Owly,

It has been done, you might have seen it already but.....

Little Tri Sporting a Split Junk Rig | Small Trimarans
I have seen it, and also a small Marples, about the same size in Portland, a Dragonfly in Europe, and another small trimaran on an island in the Indian Ocean. The one you point to is the only one with the split rig. Thanks!
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:32   #3625
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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Originally Posted by owly View Post
Now these are some useful thoughts that appear to be based on real world experience by someone who spends some time in thought...as I tend to do.... "How could I make things better"

My concerns with regard to this configuration are water.......... The stock configuration places the berths forward where presumably the dodger will protect them if he companion way is open.... and of course the galley is forward, which is one of my gripes with the British boats.. Westerly and Macwester and others. The British dont seem to get that a galley need ventilation......... lots of it. The Searunner 31 places the galley in the "spray zone", not a good thing, but moving it forward to the dressing room places it in a zone of extremely poor ventilation...... assuming the forward hatch must remain closed........... There are trade offs to everything. As as singe hander, I can sleep anywhere that suits me........... And in the tropics that may be the cockpit.

Like you, I give these things significant thought.

I've slept in a recliner for over 20 years for several reasons........ I don't anticipate sleeping flat, and that changes the complexion of things.

"Just Makin' the best of a bad situatioin..... reckon I'd do the same if it were me....."



Only time will tell how I finally choose to utilize the space...... an SR37 would be nice, but I'm NOT willing to go there.

H.W.
This layout does address some of my reservations about the 31/34 layout, especially for single handed sailing.. First on the ventilation, a small hatch above in the cabin ceiling or other ventilator takes care of it. A plexiglass lip up from the cabin front if more spray resistance is warranted. We have a hatch in our cabin roof forward and it stays dry especially when opened only on the back edge.

To me the real luxury in a galley is having it in a place where traffic isn't a issue and the cook can work uninterrupted. The Brit approach is actually the traditional galley location from the days of working sail because most passages are made offwind. Hey, no spray, great ventilation, no bumping the cook.

The big benefit to the layout is visibility. When cooking, eating, lounging or keeping watch under auto pilot or wind vane you can see where you are going which for safety is a lot more important than where you've been.

You'll need a windshield or dodger for that forward located center cockpit no matter the layout. Jim shows his neat set up in the videos on outrig.org which will take care of any spray concerns with the bunks in the old galley location. Sleeping reclining you'll be able to get a degree of forward visibility and be safer sleeping up or down with your feet forward. Pad the cabin front if you think you can pitch into it.

The stern head in the Nicol just works great and is much easier on the user than the head in the bow in the stock layout. There is a reason for those vomitoriam cartoons in the Searunner handbook. That area now becomes a better place for cordage and other storage that is light but bulky. I'd say sails but you don't want extras.

Just suggestions, you sound like you have time to tire kick. The big suggestion is to get real experience with the stock rig and with the junk rig. It sounds like you haven't actually sailed either but have made up your mind from what you have read. This is not science but a reaction to the prose of the scribe. The sea rewards a hands on approach, romanticizing can happen at anchor. Jim designed these boats based on experience not theory and that is the best way to develop the design to suit your needs.
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Old 04-05-2017, 07:49   #3626
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

My experience has been that the sterncastle is an ideal use of space. I cook, therefore I appreciate the location that is the quietest and most stable to prepare meals, as well as the best for sitting and enjoying them. I spend the least time in the head up forward, again, a brilliant design consideration for use of space. But, the zero gravity toilet can be entertaining in actual use when things are bouncing.
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:12   #3627
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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My experience has been that the sterncastle is an ideal use of space. I cook, therefore I appreciate the location that is the quietest and most stable to prepare meals, as well as the best for sitting and enjoying them. I spend the least time in the head up forward, again, a brilliant design consideration for use of space. But, the zero gravity toilet can be entertaining in actual use when things are bouncing.
The stern castle has that great cabin, sailing ship feel and look which is very appealing. My reservation here is that the off watch winds up up in the stern dragging the transom down which slows the boat. Not really a issue for a couple or single hander but noticeable with a bigger crew.

Much of those layout ideas came after I got the Nicol which works so well I have to keep it. But I wanted to figure out how to get the features I wanted into a smaller Searunner. The layout is actually based on Norm Cross' 10.5 center cockpit cutter which took a bit to figure out why he had done it the way he did.

I spend the most time coastal cruising and it is really helpful to keep an eye on what is going on when cooking or navigating while the crew winds the boat up several notches.
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Old 04-05-2017, 09:53   #3628
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

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My experience has been that the sterncastle is an ideal use of space. I cook, therefore I appreciate the location that is the quietest and most stable to prepare meals, as well as the best for sitting and enjoying them. I spend the least time in the head up forward, again, a brilliant design consideration for use of space. But, the zero gravity toilet can be entertaining in actual use when things are bouncing.
Agreed. Even on my 31er. Sure got to be careful about spray in certain conditions but with a dodger (working on one now) the galley is protected from wind. Plenty of visual from the gally AND everywhere. I tend to sleep forward in a berth for the same visual reasons.
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Old 04-05-2017, 10:04   #3629
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

I had a 31 and think Jim probably got his market right but I do prefer the alternative. Those sight lines out of the aft cabin hatch are primarily of legs in the cockpit. And there is no arguing about that bow head going into a chop. The old design resigned comment is there is a good place in the boat and everything wants to be in it. It really gets down to what compromises you want to make. Put people at that table and my version will pass you but that view of the wake streaming astern is priceless. It would even make the head a special event rather than a ordeal!
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Old 04-05-2017, 13:55   #3630
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Re: Trimaran - Especially Searunner - Owners

Its all about finding that special spot on Searunners. And I have found lots of little spots that makes one feel just right. As the boat pieces and bounces over waves going to windward or scalping the waves on a reach with the mule and a small main and directly downwind on a true run under a small spinnaker off the bows. Maximum go forward in good a good breeze. Awsome its that sail configuration that makes the Searunner what it is. The go forward is what its all about and then the cosy sterncastle with mates talking about the day sail in the evening. Beat that.
the junk rig is a joke for those that don't want to appreciate the go forward.
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