Transom Steps on Catamarans

[beiland]

Originally Posted by cat man do

The last place you would want an engine.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

My lagoon was that way and I wouldnt have it any other way personally.

Then I would ask if you were ever in a heavy sea, and had need to access the engine(s)?? Whether you were running off with that sea, or powering into it, it might represent a pretty precarious situation.

I think what Cat Man Do was referring to was the effort by designers to keep the big weights out of the extreme ends of the vessel....no engines here if it can be accomplished.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Abaco

The Leopard 47 has a nice transom step that is wide enough for two people to sit side by side. Great feature when you are swimming off the stern at anchor. Also, on a long trip in following seas, it's good for sitting on the bottom step while underway and letting the waves flow over the bottom step. It felt great on a summer day. We did end up adding a line across your waist to keep from getting dragged off the boat.

Lets put a photo with that Leopard 47....and per chance the one I found also has a fishing arrangement...interesting, fishing under sail

[smj]

Originally Posted by Tropic Cat

I've seen some transom step designs that completely lift up to provide engine access. Makes for interesting trips into the engine space in any kind of a sea.

Our Edel 43 had engines under the transom steps and to me it was just plain silly. Not only do you put the weight at the back of the boat but you have to use saildrives and engine access even in pleasant weather is ridiculous.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by beiland

I’ve seen all of these ‘grand stairways’ to the sea that incidentally most often offer no handholds to grab onto….fine at the boatshows, but not at sea. I much prefer to walk down my more narrow, indented steps with something to hold onto, or lean against rather than fall over the side. Besides I don’t need a big width of steps to stroll down side-by-side.

While attending the Annapolis Sailboat Show and took a couple of photos of these two different sterns that illustrate my point. Which one would you rather negoiate, particularly at sea?

Quite honestly i would not go down the transom steps whilst at sea unless for good reason and if underway only with an observer on deck and or a harness worn, 'tis very hard to swim after a yacht even sailing at two knots!
These steps are swim steps or at times a boarding point, tide run can and does make it difficult. Having come from a mono i love the "back steps" concept.
Just deviating from the discussion a little, it's a sobering thought that most men who fall from a boat of any type are usually relieving themselves at the time, it's the old story one hand for the boat and one hand for..... And always from the cap shrouds NEVER from the Stern....

[thinwater]

a. Neither. One has no railings, the other will scoop too much water in a following sea.
b. Mine have SS tubing railings and they are very useful.
c. Yes, they are used at sea, always wearing a harness and tether. Landing fish, unhooking crab float lines from the rudder shaft, and recovering MOB (or over side--depends, we have done both in drills, and transom is generally much easier and faster). All of these are done at slow speed and all of these uses enhance safety by simplifying the task.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Just deviating from the discussion a little, it's a sobering thought that most men who fall from a boat of any type are usually relieving themselves at the time, it's the old story one hand for the boat and one hand for..... And always from the cap shrouds NEVER from the Stern....

And without data, I take this as a pointless repetition of urban legend. Either produce the figures, or let it drop.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by thinwater

And without data, I take this as a pointless repetition of urban legend. Either produce the figures, or let it drop.

Urban Legend? Data??? It's advice from experience i have two friends who went that way, one died the other survived.......

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

Urban Legend? Data??? It's advice from experience i have two friends who went that way, one died the other survived.......

Unbelievable. And just incredibly thick.

I stand corrected.

_____________

Not to be vulgar, but safety is important. I single-handed my last boat a lot and often could not leave the helm to go below; she was a fast and tender sailer. And so I decide that is what bottles are for, and thus I am still here. I thought it rather obvious.

[Lagoon4us]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Unbelievable. And just incredibly thick.

I stand corrected.

_____________

Not to be vulgar, but safety is important. I single-handed my last boat a lot and often could not leave the helm to go below; she was a fast and tender sailer. And so I decide that is what bottles are for, and thus I am still here. I thought it rather obvious.

Sadly both situations alcohol was involved, the one who survived quickly sobered his thoughts he could see Gladstone's loom from his VERY low vantage point then between the foam wakeline he could see the disappearing sternlight.
The other person on the boat went onto a reciprical course and nearly run him over. Conditions thankfully were calm.
People just don't think of dangers from simple actions and i don't believe boat ownership does a seaman make!
I guess stupidity bolsters 'Darwins' theory no end.... Cheers point taken on the bottle i used to aim for the cockpit scupper whilst seated ... :-)

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Lagoon4us

.... i used to aim for the cockpit scupper whilst seated ... :-)

Another sore point arises...most cockpit scuppers are undersized for the volume they need to drain....

...now if we increase the scupper sizes we might relax our aim a little

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by beiland

Then I would ask if you were ever in a heavy sea, and had need to access the engine(s)?? Whether you were running off with that sea, or powering into it, it might represent a pretty precarious situation.

I think what Cat Man Do was referring to was the effort by designers to keep the big weights out of the extreme ends of the vessel....no engines here if it can be accomplished.

Well first, in heavy seas why would I be in the engine room instead of sailing?
Even if on a lee shore, why would I be in the engine room instead of sailing?
Am I really going to go down and work on the engine in these conditions?
On the other hand 99% of the time I'm working on the engines in a quiet harbor and it's a pleasure with this type of design.
The engine rooms were huge, had amazing natural light and access, ability to stand up to remove an engine head etc and room for a gen set, engine water maker and hydraulic autopilot.
The boat kept the aft end (s) up far better than my 44 and 47 foot monohulls in heavy following seas. I would assume the designer designed the aft hull sections to take the weight... no?

[beiland]

Originally Posted by thinwater

a. Neither. One has no railings, the other will scoop too much water in a following sea.

'Scoops water'?? Maybe upon hard backing down,, but in an overtaking sea the water simply drains right out and down the large opening of the steps.

b. Mine have SS tubing railings and they are very useful.

Always amazes me how many people find that adding another {heavy) piece of heavy metal (stainless) with associated fastners is the answer for so many add-ons. Personally I think there are some much more creative and clearner ways to do it.

c. Yes, they are used at sea, always wearing a harness and tether. Landing fish, unhooking crab float lines from the rudder shaft, and recovering MOB (or over side--depends, we have done both in drills, and transom is generally much easier and faster). All of these are done at slow speed and all of these uses enhance safety by simplifying the task.

Agreed

And there have been occassions where like that guy taking a leak with one hand for holding on, I rather had need of both hands for the task at hand, and I was thankful for a way I could body brace myself in between some structure of the vessel. Your MOB recovery is a prime example.

[muskoka]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Well first, in heavy seas why would I be in the engine room instead of sailing?
Even if on a lee shore, why would I be in the engine room instead of sailing?
Am I really going to go down and work on the engine in these conditions?
On the other hand 99% of the time I'm working on the engines in a quiet harbor and it's a pleasure with this type of design.

Exactly! The whole point of a TWO engined boat is redundancy - if one fails you can forget about it until you're back in harbour.

The worry of having to fix both engines offshore in dire conditions is a straw man argument. If it's that windy you sail, and if one engine fails you've got a backup. Transoms are swim platforms and anyone who's standing on them offshore without being clipped in has a death wish.

The only downside of the transom engine configuration is that it means you must have sail drives. And the transom gets fatter to prevent squatting under load (hence the lovely boat show steps). On the other hand, it puts the engines where they belong, in a dedicated engine compartment. It's a pretty reasonable compromise.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by thinwater

And without data, I take this as a pointless repetition of urban legend. Either produce the figures, or let it drop.

Gregor Tarjan talked about this in his book and mentioned a well known racer who was pulled from the sea dead with his fly open. I'm not home and don't have that book available and can't remember the guys name. I beleive it was high latitudes so he died of exposure. Also can't remember if mono or multi.
Also, there is an ad for the Outremer 49 which shows 2 kids sitting on the steps underway. We did it as well without harnesses when it was mellow and it was really nice. I wouldn't do it the heavy stuff and wouldn't recommend it for non-swimmers but for the rest of the time and for the rest of us it's fine. BTW I've peed off those steps and survived. We all did. BOB

[Cheechako]

The only downside of the transom engine configuration is that it means you must have sail drives. And the transom gets fatter to prevent squatting under load (hence the lovely boat show steps). On the other hand, it puts the engines where they belong, in a dedicated engine compartment. It's a pretty reasonable compromise.
Actually mine have V drives with shaft logs and max props......