The New Fastcat 405: Please Comment and Help Us Make the Perfect 40-41' Cat

[ldrhawke]

Nor sure without seeing the actual plans, but the point is it can be anything you want it to be. It could have been left empty for racing purpose. The point is the layout can be anything you want within the confines of the hull, if you want to change the std. layouts plans available.

The Fusion I looked at the owner totally redesigned the cabin, ref/freezer,and galley layout to his own personal taste. Fusion made a mold of his redesign and it is now available in a lightweight resin injected foam form for others to use. The Fusion is a semi-custom boat. Nice concept.

[Southern Star]

Nice concept indeed, although as you say, the quality will be directly related to the skills of the yard who build her. I also suspect that the resale value of all of them will be compromised to some extent by that same variance, but if you are less worried about resale value than you are about customization, it may well be the way to go.

Brad

[S/V Elusive]

To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism, to steal ideas from many is research." ~ Anonymous

[Spammy]

Gideon,
I've been here for a while, and lurked for much longer. My wife (a.k.a."The Admiral") and I are avid sailors, with a monohull (Catalina 42) on the U.S. Gulf coast. While we have only owned monohulls, a running discussion has gone for many years about a catamaran. The Admiral virtually insists on one. I have studied various multihulls on the internet for years. Most were rejected because of undesirable design features (much like your own story, it seems). I really liked the Gunboat designs, (as well as Chris White designs) but the price tag is a bit steep in my view. Your designs seem to meet our needs in almost all ways. I particularly like the light weight, and fast cruising speeds attainable, making for shorter passage times. But perhaps what is most appealing is the "Green Motion" idea, as it appears to answer our wishes to be as completely energy self-sufficient as is currently possible. I'm also interested in whether you have a future thought about the application of fuel cell technology to your designs.
In any case, we are in the process of moving in the direction of buying a catamaran for an extended world cruise. You mentioned that you had closed your current list of orders, and were not accepting any more, with a current backlog of three years. We are very interested in looking at a Fastcat 455 for this purpose, and would plan to look at a boat with the idea of living aboard for an indefinite period. The time frame for new orders on your boats seems for generally fit our timetable (sometime in the next five years).
I would very much like to have a direct look at your boats with an eye on eventually ordering one, if they are as nice as the pictures. How may we correspond?
spammy (nothing to do with unsolicited commercial emails ! )

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by Spammy

Gideon,
I've been here for a while, and lurked for much longer. My wife (a.k.a."The Admiral") and I are avid sailors, with a monohull (Catalina 42) on the U.S. Gulf coast. While we have only owned monohulls, a running discussion has gone for many years about a catamaran. The Admiral virtually insists on one. I have studied various multihulls on the internet for years. Most were rejected because of undesirable design features (much like your own story, it seems). I really liked the Gunboat designs, (as well as Chris White designs) but the price tag is a bit steep in my view. Your designs seem to meet our needs in almost all ways. I particularly like the light weight, and fast cruising speeds attainable, making for shorter passage times. But perhaps what is most appealing is the "Green Motion" idea, as it appears to answer our wishes to be as completely energy self-sufficient as is currently possible. I'm also interested in whether you have a future thought about the application of fuel cell technology to your designs.
In any case, we are in the process of moving in the direction of buying a catamaran for an extended world cruise. You mentioned that you had closed your current list of orders, and were not accepting any more, with a current backlog of three years. We are very interested in looking at a Fastcat 455 for this purpose, and would plan to look at a boat with the idea of living aboard for an indefinite period. The time frame for new orders on your boats seems for generally fit our timetable (sometime in the next five years).
I would very much like to have a direct look at your boats with an eye on eventually ordering one, if they are as nice as the pictures. How may we correspond?
spammy (nothing to do with unsolicited commercial emails ! )

Hallo Spammy

we have started taking orders again since we have moved to a brandnew factory and are slowly increasing our production to 24 FastCats per year.
All the present and new developed models will be available in the Green Motion version starting with the Fastcat 405 , 455 , 505 and the 555 plus the new Eco power cat.
All these cats will be comfortable spacious and fast live abord cruisers since that is the only market we build for.
Our Green Motion system will take the use or I should say non use of fossil fuels a whole step further and fossil fuel will only be used in long time periods of having no wind or if you are in a hurry with little wind.
Even for the cooking and hot water on board electricity is used.
If you would like to communicate directly you can mail me at gideon@africancats.com or skype me @ fastcat435

Greetings
Gideon

[fastcat435]

If it is the same boat design than the Fusion was copied from the Fastcat 455 since the 405 is a smaller version of the 455 and the first 435 was build in 2004 2 years before the Fusion.
I think the Fusion is a nice boat from what I have seen on pictures but a touch heavy.
Infusing with Epoxy and not using gellcoat already saves 15 % in weight.
The Fusion is being build with Divinycell foam that I have designed 5 years ago in order to save weight.
If we talk plagiarism all cats are a copy of one another or you need new prescription for your glasses ?

Obviously the Fusion is your kind of cat but I prefer the different steering position , bimini and many more differences.

Good luck with your Fusion

Greetings and happy sailing

Gideon

[ldrhawke]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

If it is the same boat design than the Fusion was copied from the Fastcat 455 since the 405 is a smaller version of the 455 and the first 435 was build in 2004 2 years before the Fusion.
I think the Fusion is a nice boat from what I have seen on pictures but a touch heavy.
Infusing with Epoxy and not using gellcoat already saves 15 % in weight.
The Fusion is being build with Divinycell foam that I have designed 5 years ago in order to save weight.
If we talk plagiarism all cats are a copy of one another or you need new prescription for your glasses ?

Obviously the Fusion is your kind of cat but I prefer the different steering position , bimini and many more differences.

Good luck with your Fusion

Greetings and happy sailing

Gideon

IMHO your new 405 or 410 doesn't look anything like the FastCat 455 and far more like the Fusion, but that's only my HO.

My main point was really your claimed sail away displacement of only 3600 kilo's, when Fusion 40 displaces 5,750 kilos. The bare finished hull of the Fusion is also very light. Infact, the owner I spoke with said they picked up the whole empty finished hull only using a small front end loader to pick it up and move it during construction.

Your claimed 3600 kilo for a FastCat 405 is nearly 40% lighter than a nearly dimensional duplicate the Fusion 40. The 15% weight savings you now state above for the bare hulls is a far cry from 40% for the total boat. Your epoxy and poly paint would only save be a couple hundred kilos at best, not the 2,000 kilos savings you state the Fastcat 405 will save in displacement compared to a Fusion.

I don't even think the Fusion they built to race, set up ready to sail with out any build outs inside the hulls, was that light. Fusion and other builders also carefully selects materials inside the boat to save weight. You use light weight Corian for counter tops, when another builder I know won't even use sprayed on Corian because it adds too much weight. Some catamaran designers are against having even a generator, electric winch, electric sump pumps, or electric toilets on their cats to save weight. Your concern with weight doesn't go as far as other catamaran designers and is not new.

What do you build everything inside a FastCat out of air; furniture build outs, ref/freezer, dual generators, 4 solar cells, radar, instruments, wiring, piping, windows, ports, doors, tankage, water maker, hotwater tanks, rigging, sails, etc? Fusion and other builders would love to know how you can save so much weight in these areas when they can't?

Your electric drive system, when using Lithium batteries, may save weight compared to some other electric drive systems that use lead acid batteries, but electric drives generally weigh more, and sometimes a lot more, than simple conventional diesels drives when you take into account batteries, wiring, controls, and generators required; so there is no real weight saving there. You play the green card and claim electric propulsion is fossil free....it isn't fossil fuel free when you need diesel generators to normally recharge batteries.

I think your effort to save weight is admirable and also taking advantage of new lighter materials and products that come to the market. Carbon fiber and epoxy are well proven, but some others materials are not. At some point you may make a part or connection too light, weak or not take the total effect of material change with age into account. All materials fail. In the aircraft industry destructive and life cycle testing is a must. That is not the case in building personal water craft. We often depend upon race boat designs to prove and test new materials. Engineering structural analysis of materials and how they are used in boats is often more experience than design calculations. In many respects new boat owners are the ones often testing unproven structural designs and materials. How well new construction materials perform on a 10 year old boat getting beat up in heavy seas is a question only time will answer. Cruising catamaran owners don't want light fast racing cat construction that may self destruct at the wrong time or with age. A few more lbs of epoxy and glass in a critical joint or a few more inches of bridge deck clearance is a good thing in a cruising cat. Light in a boat is normally good, but how light is good may be lesson hard learned.

You have said before that your FastCats are designed to take considerably heavier loads, that could set them nearly a foot deeper in the water and still sail well and perform safely. Does that also account for increased bridge deck pounding in heavy seas? What is the actual bridge deck clearance under these wide load conditions? The water lines, light load and full load line on your hulls don't to indicate this wide an acceptable variation. Why?

IMHO, exaggerated claims and playing the environmental Green card, works when selling used cars or Prius, but it shouldn't work or be allowed when selling sailboats that owners life and others are dependent upon on the open ocean. I think you would agree, any exaggerated or questionable design claim should be reason for concern and questioned.

A FastCats final sailing displacement compared to design weight is easily verified by weighing a finished boat ready to sail and showing documentation from the dozens of FastCats now in owners hands. Are there any FastCat owners out there that have weighed their boats on the forum? Can you supply a list of owners we can contact?

In fact, I don't think your FastCats are as light as you claim. If we weighed a sail away FastCat, compared to other catamarans builders, who don't install equipment that you state is standard FastCats. I think you add more weight than the possible few hundred kilos you may actually save in lighter hull materials. Many builders other builders use Divinycell foam and resin infusion. It appears to me Fusions close tolerance compound curve molds they designed and built at considerable expense do as good and possibly even better than your building system, even with the extra weight of a gel coat.

IMHO, I and others, think you are very well versed in catamaran design, but are often very fast and loose with weight numbers and claims when describing your new FastCat designs for marketing purpose, for boats that often haven't even been built yet.

If I was a FastCat buyer I would very very concerned with unsubstantiated claims. It's not that I don't think a FastCat can be built safely a lighter than many cats and still have cruising amenities, it's the IMHO exaggerated 40% to 50% weight saving claims you state over other well designed and built catamarans I question.

[ldrhawke]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

.......................
If we talk plagiarism all cats are a copy of one another or you need new prescription for your glasses ?

Obviously the Fusion is your kind of cat but I prefer the different steering position , bimini and many more differences.

Good luck with your Fusion

Greetings and happy sailing

Gideon

I guess I do need glasses. For some reason I read your earlier following comments about installing solar cells to indicate that you would not be using a binimi as shown on the 405 dwrgs, but would be copying the Fusion roof line exactly and extending it back to install solar panels. Did I misunderstand your previous comments?

The hard top as shown is only to show that it will have a hard top , the actual hard top will be a copy of the saloon roof and will standard carry 4 x 210 watt solar panels.

[ldrhawke]

The 410 will have a payload of 2500 Kilo 5500 lbs for fast cruising and a maximum allowable payload of 3600 kilo 8000 lbs for world traveling.

I hate to be quoting you all the time, but I really am curious about some of your statements. Can you show us the basis and how you come up with some of your rather liberal load carrying numbers.

Your max payload of 8,000 lbs on a 405 FastCat is almost equal to the pay load of the GunBoat 62 which is all carbon fiber epoxy constructed and displaces 26,000 lb empty.

If I used your design numbers, of the max load is about equal to the boats empty weight, a GunBoat 62 will be capable of cruising with 26,000 lbs of load. For some reason I don't think the manufactuer or designers would go along with that.

[Spammy]

I tried to post a comment and it was lost. What I was trying to say was that the tone of this thread is getting away from the original intent of the thread-starter, who was looking for comments on his design regarding what features experienced catamaran sailors would be looking for in a 40' cat. It seems to have been steered towards critiques of "claims" and "plagiarism" (which is, by the way a word applicable to print media and not product design). Personally, I do not think that this is taking the discussion in a positive direction, but is rather more intended to put Fastcat on the defensive. Perhaps the criticisms should take place in personal emails.(?)
Just another opinion.....
Spammy

[ldrhawke]

Originally Posted by Spammy

I tried to post a comment and it was lost. What I was trying to say was that the tone of this thread is getting away from the original intent of the thread-starter, who was looking for comments on his design regarding what features experienced catamaran sailors would be looking for in a 40' cat. It seems to have been steered towards critiques of "claims" and "plagiarism" (which is, by the way a word applicable to print media and not product design). Personally, I do not think that this is taking the discussion in a positive direction, but is rather more intended to put Fastcat on the defensive. Perhaps the criticisms should take place in personal emails.(?)
Just another opinion.....
Spammy

And you have every right to your opinion. The fact is a vendor is presenting his product on this forum and making claims to interest buyers. It worked with you! I enjoy reading FastCats topics, even when I don't fully agree with everything said.

But don't you think making a forum topic title "'the New Fastcat 405 please comment and help us making the perfect 40/41 ft cat" was a little ostentatious and obvious marketing hype.

The design plagiarism comment was simply my opinion of the FastCat 405 design renderings and I agree that could have been left out. But, of all people, I would expect you or any potential buyer to be concerned about a manufacturer making design, construction, and performance claims that appear overzealous and often more marketing hype than engineering fact.

I don't think asking a manufacturer to support their claims about product they build and are attempting to market on a public forum is undue criticism. If it puts FastCat on the defensive, the easy thing to do is not make bold marketing, design, construction, and performance claims that will be questioned. Also, he should not continuously implying other catamaran builders don't build as light, as well designed, as good a quality, or as well a performing catamaran as a FastCat because they don't build his way.

As far as taking it off line, of all topics, this is the type that belong on line and open to public discussion.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by ldrhawke

I don't think asking a manufacturer to support their claims about product they build and are attempting to market on a public forum is undue criticism. If it puts FastCat on the defensive, the easy thing to do is not make bold marketing, design, construction, and performance claims that will be questioned. Also, he should not continuously implying other catamaran builders don't build as light, as well designed, as good a quality, or as well a performing catamaran as a FastCat because they don't build his way.

As far as taking it off line, of all topics, this is the type that belong on line and open to public discussion.

There have been other threads with almost identical posts/comments in the past.
Some have even gone over to check it out IIRC.
Maybe they are still around........

[Nordic cat]

I agree with most of Idrhawkes comments to and about Gideon,it does sometimes annoy me that he keeps going on as if he is the only one who keeps his boats light. He often makes statements that are not entirely truthful, yet not a complete lie. I think it is high time we call his bluff.

I have often asked him to clarify or substantiate statements about the weights and load carrying. The last time was regarding the CE marking of the 455. He claimed 8 tons load carrying ability, the CE certificate said 5 tons. Read the thread and form your own opinion, take note of his usual tactics when he has been caught out.

He wrote the message as though the green motion system was specifically CE approved as the first in the world. You can not get CE approval for a propulsion system!!! The system has to fulfill the general requirements that are relevant, but it does not get a specific approval by a third party as he tries to make out in his press release.When challenged, he never admits that he was a bit over zealous with the truth.

The fastcat 435 is in effect a Norseman, google up some pictures and you can barely tell the diiference.

By the way Gideon is not the designer, Angelo Lavranos is. Gideon was a successfull car salesman/dealer in Holland before he took his sales talent to the catamaran market.

It sounds like he has alot of boats out there and plenty of orders. In fact he has only built 4 boats in 4 years, maybe number 5 has been launched, so the story about being flooded with orders must be something that has suddenly changed in the last months, about the same time frame as the global economy went into a tailspin

His claims for the speed of his boat across the Atlantic from Capetown has grown with time. Originally he had the complete log of the trip on his site, but that got removed quite quickly, (I wonder why?) now he is claiming 9 knot averages for ocean crossings, whereas his customers blogs show 5-6 knot averages.

Gideon, I have asked you to be more respectful of the truth earlier, yet you seem to persist, so it's great that more people are catching on to what you are doing and reacting to it.

I am really looking forward to hear from Setttingsail2009, when he gets his 435 weighed, so we can see if it only weighs around 5 tons like you claim.

Sorry for the negative stuff guys, but I just hate salesmen who aren't truthfull, or people who tart up their story to make money.

I am working on the design of a cat at present, witha very experienced NA, when we look at the figures we have and compare to Gideons weight claims, then it sure looks like there must be a ton missing somewhere, whether it's in the claim or in the quality (lack of material?) I don't know. I would like to see you substaniate your weight claims Gideon, using a certified weight/weigher. Are you up to the challenge? I'm sure we can find a CF member or 2 to be present as witnesses....

Regards

Alan

[Spammy]

I've been a participant in various discussion groups on the internet since the early days of Mosaic, and before the days of web browsers, on Usenet and IRC. I have spent considerable time on a number of forums on a variety of subjects. I'm new here, however. I had no intention of disrupting the discussion here. Elsewhere, I have seen good discussion hampered by confrontations and even saw a discussion forum fail and cease to exist due to confrontations between posters. I did not mean to insinuate myself into the discussion or to take sides other than to make a light attempt to turn the thermostat down a couple of notches.
I'm interested in a catamaran. Every boat is a compromise. Some features will meet our requirements and some will fall short. People in the business of selling things will always present their product in the best light. I would never consider seriously getting into a purchase without a thorough inspection, a survey and a sea trial. I will also watch the market to see who is selling boats in the next two or three years. Good products should tend to remain successful, while other companies will go out of business. I have by no means made any sort of "decision".
Incidentally, I corresponded multiple times with the Gunboat people (in spite of the eye-popping price tag). I had a problem with thinking seriously about their boats when they told me that there was not a single one in North America for me to personally inspect. I certainly have not ruled a Gunboat 48 out. I'd just like to retire a little sooner so I could enjoy my boat...
I relish serious, considerate discussion, and hope to make friends here. Please bear with me.
spammy

[slomotion]

Originally Posted by ldrhawke

A FastCats final sailing displacement compared to design weight is easily verified by weighing a finished boat ready to sail and showing documentation from the dozens of FastCats now in owners hands. Are there any FastCat owners out there that have weighed their boats on the forum? Can you supply a list of owners we can contact?

I have never seen a FastCat or a Fusion for that matter. Gideon asked for comments on a new unbuilt design called the 405 - now morphed into something called the 410. I don't know what the weight of the other "dozens of FastCats now in owners hands" has to do with this. The projected splash date for the new boat is the middle of next year. So, No - none have been weighed.

Gideon also said: "It will be a challenge to keep the ready weight at or under 3600 kilo,s or 8000 LBS but I am sure we will get there." You've made it clear that Fusion can't do this and you don't think Gideon can either. I have no idea - let's wait and see.