The loss of Walkabout

[RoadRacer]

I'm looking forward to hearing the remainder of this story once the legal dust has settled. When an experienced delivery skipper has a collision at sea, I'm very curious to learn and avoid similar circumstances.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by RoadRacer

I'm looking forward to hearing the remainder of this story once the legal dust has settled. When an experienced delivery skipper has a collision at sea, I'm very curious to learn and avoid similar circumstances.

Yes, I hope we hear more. I keep coming back to the fact that a boat that size, with an experienced skipper, in waters where large steel fishing vessels are know to travel without lights or anyone at the helm, was running with no effective forward lookout and no radar.

[Chotu]

Aside from all the emotional issues and how awful i feel for everyone involved, I was taken aback by the fees slapped on by the Spanish authorities.

Isn't that rubbing salt in wounds??

Why would they charge fees that cause this fine looking boat to be totaled and cut up??? I thought the EU was all about the environment. Surely refurbishing a still intact hull is better for the environment than putting it in the trash.

What the hell??

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

Yes, I hope we hear more. I keep coming back to the fact that a boat that size, with an experienced skipper, in waters where large steel fishing vessels are know to travel without lights or anyone at the helm, was running with no effective forward lookout and no radar.

I can't answer both assumptions at this stage (case pending), but the one re: radar - I've spent a reasonable amount of time in Biscay and surrounding waters and every time, ended up disengaging the radar due to the significant clutter and ineffectiveness of the system in the prevailing conditions.

While radar / AIS / secondary crew member on watch are nice to have, they're not essentials by any means and just accepting the fact "large steel fishing vessels knowingly travel without lights or anyone at the helm" is a big part of the problem.

Like I said, more to follow once the case is sorted.

n

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Aside from all the emotional issues and how awful i feel for everyone involved, I was taken aback by the fees slapped on by the Spanish authorities.

Isn't that rubbing salt in wounds??

Why would they charge fees that cause this fine looking boat to be totaled and cut up??? I thought the EU was all about the environment. Surely refurbishing a still intact hull is better for the environment than putting it in the trash.

What the hell??

So, there's the EU and the EU. Not all small fishing villages have the same financial backing as say, Berlin, so they'll still try and make a quick buck wherever they can (same as the Carib, some South Pacific cities, etc).

The other issue is that the town doesn't really deal in significant refits of sailboats and Walkabout was a custom cat, so they were working with best estimates (eg. £30k for new rigging). Add to that the harbour master slapped on a stay notice so the boat couldn't leave the port to get 60nm down the coast to La Coruna where a fix would've been a lot easier UNTIL the holes in the bows had been rough patched... for which they quoted £30k.

To me, it feels like the guy quoting thought he could make a quick buck from a "rich yachtie", without realising the boat is a custom (and not worth £200k) and that the insurance co would just write it off. As it is, they billed the insurance co £10k for destruction of the vessel... for which they'll strip it and easily make another £10-20k in parts.

Anyway. Frustrating as a whole but that's how it goes sometimes, eh?

n

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

I can't answer both assumptions at this stage (case pending), but the one re: radar - I've spent a reasonable amount of time in Biscay and surrounding waters and every time, ended up disengaging the radar due to the significant clutter and ineffectiveness of the system in the prevailing conditions.

While radar / AIS / secondary crew member on watch are nice to have, they're not essentials by any means and just accepting the fact "large steel fishing vessels knowingly travel without lights or anyone at the helm" is a big part of the problem.

Like I said, more to follow once the case is sorted.

Thank you so much for staying engaged in this conversation. I'm not sure I could be as understanding as you have been had this happened to me.

I guess the whole idea is so far out of my experience, and my comfort level, that I can't really even form an opinion. I simply can't imagine being underway, at night, in difficult conditions and not being able to see in front of me either visually OR by radar. It goes against everything I've ever learned or experienced.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

Thank you so much for staying engaged in this conversation. I'm not sure I could be as understanding as you have been had this happened to me.

I guess the whole idea is so far out of my experience, and my comfort level, that I can't really even form an opinion. I simply can't imagine being underway, at night, in difficult conditions and not being able to see in front of me either visually OR by radar. It goes against everything I've ever learned or experienced.

Of course! I think it's more disbelief that it's happened, and being resigned to the fact I'll need to spend a bit longer in the UK rather than heading to the Carib and back to Aus. I could easily have got really upset over it but life's taught me that'd achieve not a great deal, so I'm just working my way through it day at a time really.

I really can't say much else on conditions or visual indications of the other vessel at this stage, other than having reviewed all reports / witness statements / etc, the insurance company feel it's an open and shut case, and have been very supportive of my position.

n

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

I guess the whole idea is so far out of my experience, and my comfort level, that I can't really even form an opinion. I simply can't imagine being underway, at night, in difficult conditions and not being able to see in front of me either visually OR by radar. It goes against everything I've ever learned or experienced.

It's not very far from driving a car a night, though, maybe with some added rain for poor visibility. It's not that risky because the system is designed to be quite safe (separate lanes, car lights, reflective material) and most people adhere to the rules.

I don't think there is much I can do if someone decides to drive the wrong way on my lane, without any lights on. The only solution to this is to fix the system (fines, driving school, etc) so that this will be extremely rare.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

So, there's the EU and the EU. Not all small fishing villages have the same financial backing as say, Berlin, so they'll still try and make a quick buck wherever they can (same as the Carib, some South Pacific cities, etc).

The other issue is that the town doesn't really deal in significant refits of sailboats and Walkabout was a custom cat, so they were working with best estimates (eg. £30k for new rigging). Add to that the harbour master slapped on a stay notice so the boat couldn't leave the port to get 60nm down the coast to La Coruna where a fix would've been a lot easier UNTIL the holes in the bows had been rough patched... for which they quoted £30k.

To me, it feels like the guy quoting thought he could make a quick buck from a "rich yachtie", without realising the boat is a custom (and not worth £200k) and that the insurance co would just write it off. As it is, they billed the insurance co £10k for destruction of the vessel... for which they'll strip it and easily make another £10-20k in parts.

Anyway. Frustrating as a whole but that's how it goes sometimes, eh?

n

Thanks for the explanation. I had planned to visit Europe by boat after plans to run around the continent by imported diesel motorhome fell through due to those emissions stickers. Now it would appear I will not be brining my boat there either. No way I'll be subjected to this type of theft.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

Thank you so much for staying engaged in this conversation. I'm not sure I could be as understanding as you have been had this happened to me.

I guess the whole idea is so far out of my experience, and my comfort level, that I can't really even form an opinion. I simply can't imagine being underway, at night, in difficult conditions and not being able to see in front of me either visually OR by radar. It goes against everything I've ever learned or experienced.

this is a common misconception about night navigation ie that you use your lights to see, like car headlights. in fact it is just the reverse...you rely on seeing the other guys lights

i actually find night lookout much easier than daytime, as lights can be seen much further / easier than eg a tiny masthead, and with experience you become quite adept at identifying course etc from the other guys lights

of course radar / AIS helps but there is no substitute for the human eyeball Mk 1...and it all goes pear shaped if you have homicidal maniacs running around without proper lights...

cheers,

[JPA Cate]

I have never looked in heavy rainfall for a steel fishing boat. Usually, heavy rainfall makes our radar "blind" by overloading it with returns from the raindrops. It is a champ in fog, but almost useless in heavy rainfall. Long ago learned how blind it is, wouldn't turn it on, now in heavy rain, because experience has taught me it can't "see" then.



Ann

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

I have never looked in heavy rainfall for a steel fishing boat. Usually, heavy rainfall makes our radar "blind" by overloading it with returns from the raindrops. It is a champ in fog, but almost useless in heavy rainfall. Long ago learned how blind it is, wouldn't turn it on, now in heavy rain, because experience has taught me it can't "see" then.



Ann

hi ann

agree. i've always found our radar pretty suspect in heavy rain. however our radar (and i think yours too) are relatively older models. i hear some of the new ones are amazingly good in even the worst conditions

seems unlike people, newer models are often better than old ones...

cheers,

[Sojourner]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

Radar? Not every sailboat has radar.

N

They should. Like AIS. If you're operating anywhere, especially coastal where you need it most to light up fishermen zigzagging around without anything on (all over the med). They are not expensive or power hungry these days. Sorry for the horrible bad luck, glad no one was hurt.... but in just 2 years tooling around the med so far since we bought our boat, fishermen have caused more close calls, changes of direction, and cursing than anything else.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

.. but in just 2 years tooling around the med so far since we bought our boat, fishermen have caused more close calls, changes of direction, and cursing than anything else.

Agreed - and this is daylight as well as night.

On a previous Biscay crossing we had a fisherman (~50ft trawler) suddenly change direction and cause complete navigation with our course.... as they wanted to show us the pod of dolphins following them. Sweet, but slightly mental.

And don’t even get me started on unlit crab and lobster pots.

N

[JPA Cate]

Dear auspn84,

never saw a fisherman do that: you were singularly "blessed."

I didn't say so before, but want to do now: condolences, mate. Really sorry, it's a really cruel life happening.

Ann