Tapered reefing lines?

[Jerry Woodward]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

If you switch to a slippery line, we saw additional (vast) improvement by attaching Antal low-friction hooks to the cringles and then running the reefing line through the hooks. The cringles themselves had a poor radius for a 180-degree turn and resulted in significant chafe. In addition, the hook at the back end is turned 90-degrees from the cringle and provides a much fairer lead from the boom through the hook to the sheave.

Since moving to the hooks we've had much easier reefing. Of course, you have to be willing to shell out the boat bucks. You could do the same thing with low-friction rings, but I like the additional benefit of being able to reeve/unreeve the reefing lines without having to pull them all the way through.

Very interesting! It occurred to me that, with these hooks, one only needs a single reefing line. If you want to use the 2nd reef, you just need to move the hooks from the first cringle to the second, or even a third if you have one. Of course it would require going to the mast to move the hooks, but for some, this might be preferable to running two lines to the cockpit

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Jerry Woodward

Very interesting! It occurred to me that, with these hooks, one only needs a single reefing line. If you want to use the 2nd reef, you just need to move the hooks from the first cringle to the second, or even a third if you have one. Of course it would require going to the mast to move the hooks, but for some, this might be preferable to running two lines to the cockpit

Imagine you have engaged the first reef. If you do as you suggest what will hold the first reef in place as you slack the reef line so you can use it for the second reef? Same for moving the tack cringle hook. Sorry, no shortcuts.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

If you switch to a slippery line, we saw additional (vast) improvement by attaching Antal low-friction hooks to the cringles and then running the reefing line through the hooks. The cringles themselves had a poor radius for a 180-degree turn and resulted in significant chafe. In addition, the hook at the back end is turned 90-degrees from the cringle and provides a much fairer lead from the boom through the hook to the sheave.



Since moving to the hooks we've had much easier reefing. Of course, you have to be willing to shell out the boat bucks. You could do the same thing with low-friction rings, but I like the additional benefit of being able to reeve/unreeve the reefing lines without having to pull them all the way through.

Have you setup your O50 for single line reefing? If so, how have you routed the halyard and reef lines? It seems to me that it puts a lot more lines running down the decks and crowding the cockpit side decks. Or did you lead them onto the cabin top? Our halyards and reef lines are all at the mast.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by Jerry Woodward

Very interesting! It occurred to me that, with these hooks, one only needs a single reefing line. If you want to use the 2nd reef, you just need to move the hooks from the first cringle to the second, or even a third if you have one. Of course it would require going to the mast to move the hooks, but for some, this might be preferable to running two lines to the cockpit

No-one minds going to the mast when it’s all calm and lovely. The point of well-organised reefing lines is that when a big squall has you on your beam-ends and an urgent need to put in the second or third reef, that’s exactly when you want to stay in the cockpit.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Jerry Woodward

It occurred to me that, with these hooks, one only needs a single reefing line.

It is not so uncommon on high-performance boats to have one reef line, and each time you set a reef you: use that line to pull it in, then transfer the load to strops (which also takes chafe off the reefline) and move the single reef line to the next reef.

Transferring reefing loads to strops 'used' to be considered standard good seamanship practice. But it has mostly disappeared except from high-performance boats.

That approach does, of course, require more work at the mast and boom than having lines for each reef. Working at the mast and boom again 'used' be considered more standard seamanship - gives you an opportunity to inspect things, and gain comfort being there for when you might be forced to be there in bad conditions - but the fleet has mostly moved away from it.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

It is not so uncommon on high-performance boats to have one reef line, and each time you set a reef you: use that line to pull it in, then transfer the load to strops (which also takes chafe off the reefline) and move the single reef line to the next reef.



Transferring reefing loads to strops 'used' to be considered standard good seamanship practice. But it has mostly disappeared except from high-performance boats.



That approach does, of course, require more work at the mast and boom than having lines for each reef. Working at the mast and boom again 'used' be considered more standard seamanship - gives you an opportunity to inspect things, and gain comfort being there for when you might be forced to be there in bad conditions - but the fleet has mostly moved away from it.

Given that on a larger boat the next reef’s cringles are a metre or more above the preceding reef, how does one transfer the line to the next reef? Do you keep mouse lines?

That’s a lot of phaffing about to use just one line, and to what purpose for a cruiser?

I didn’t race at the pinnacle of the sport, but a few rungs below. The IOR and after that the IMS boats I raced typically had no reef points on inshore mains and one or two for whichever offshore main was to be used used for Sydney-Hobart or Fastnet or similar. Mains were selected based on expected conditions. We reeved clew lines for every reef. If the forecast was for lighter winds, then reefing lines would be on messengers, but changing those for reef lines is a PITA, especially the clew end. After putting a reef in, the bowman, while harnessed and hanging off a spinnaker halyard, would add a strop to the clew and the reef line would be loosened, not removed.

Stops aren’t used anymore as we now have stretch free ropes that are way strong.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Have you setup your O50 for single line reefing? If so, how have you routed the halyard and reef lines? It seems to me that it puts a lot more lines running down the decks and crowding the cockpit side decks. Or did you lead them onto the cabin top? Our halyards and reef lines are all at the mast.

No, we have all lines at the mast, but not back to the cockpit. I've considered it, but as you note, the run to the cockpit isn't easy and seems like it would add too much friction and too many toe-stubbers.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Given that on a larger boat the next reef’s cringles are a metre or more above the preceding reef, how does one transfer the line to the next reef? Do you keep mouse lines?

yes, moused. I have typically seen mouse loops between sequenced reef points. That minimizes the mess.

That’s a lot of phaffing about to use just one line, and to what purpose for a cruiser?

yea, sure, I personally would not do it on a cruising boat. . . . although if I had 4 reef points on a mainsail I might. I actually personally prefer only 2 reef points - with really deep first one (say split the difference between a typical 1st and 2nd), and 2nd about where a 3rd would typically be.

Stops aren’t used anymore as we now have stretch free ropes that are way strong.

dyneema reef lines sure help. But they do fateigue/chafe over the bend if you repeatedly have a reef in for a couple days. A strop would move that wear to a cheaper, easier to replace piece of line, and provide redundancy in case something goes wrong (as it inevitably does over a lot of miles); but ofc at the 'cost' of extra work, both when putting in and taking out the reef. I personally still put in clew strops when I think I will be reefed for more than 24 hrs. but I am quite 'old school'.

breaking wave

[Dsanduril]

Using the Antal hooks has greatly reduced chafe on our lines compared with the cringles. In addition we have a Dyneema/UHMWPE chafe sleeve about 6"/150mm long that covers the reefing line where it sits on the hook when reefed. Been about 18 months and 15k miles since we did that and still haven't had to replace the chafe sleeve much less the line. And we usually sail with 2 reefs in the main.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Using the Antal hooks has greatly reduced chafe on our lines compared with the cringles.

I've usually sailed with LFR's on the clew points, so similar bend radius.
I have not used chafe sleeves at the reef points. Not a bad idea to use them, but I guess I had preferred to have them super slick and smooth.

The strop also unloads my clutches. I do use dacron covers there. But there still can be quite some load transmitted to the clutches.

[Jim Cate]

The clew(s) on our main are difficult to reach, even with the boom centered. I suspect that this is true on many modern boats, especially t hose with fractional rigs and long booms. Employing a strop would be difficult, even dangerous under the conditions where one is using the deep reefs. I'd rather be faced with replacing the reefing line, or at least shortening the nip a bit now and then than to struggle with a strop.

Those Antal hooks look pretty nice... didn't see pricing listed, so any rough ideas there?

Jim

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

The clew(s) on our main are difficult to reach, even with the boom centered. I suspect that this is true on many modern boats, especially t hose with fractional rigs and long booms. Employing a strop would be difficult, even dangerous under the conditions where one is using the deep reefs.

Our boat is fractional, but top of hard dodger gives you pretty decent access. Previous boat was more traditional, with lower boom. Neither felt ‘dangerous’ to do the strops - tether because working with both hands.

But do it OPBs also, with no hard dodgers. Has seemed to be usually reachable. Pretty quick. Again tether ofc. Would want the boom somewhat locked to avoid a Tabarly.

Offshore, If it’s much more than 35 kts, we usually have main down totally, perhaps with trisail depending on angle. Coastal we might run the deep reefs longer but I don’t use strops then, as I think I mentioned only if it’s likely to be in for a 24 hrs.

[Breaking Waves]

I should add, I tie in bunt lines also, if it’s going to be reefed a while and especially if I think it will rain. I dislike big bags of water in the reef folds. Again, not very commonly done these days.

[fxykty]

What kind of boat do you have? We have a large relatively stable cat with a soft bimini and a hard catwalk down the middle. I still would not want to do two trips up there to the back of the boom to place or remove strops. We do have large clew blocks for first and second reef and a wide LFR for the third, so with low stretch lines chafe is not an issue. We use webbing straps for the tack cringles.

I agree about a deeper first reef - our current first reef has a relatively small range and if it building we’re putting a second reef in fairly quickly after the first. So when we eventually replace the main I expect we’ll move the reefs. Even with that I’m not sure the third reef will ever be a true storm reef so I’m thinking a fourth reef leaving only the top third of the sail and 20% of the area should be good (current third reef leaves about 50% hoist and is 36% area).

I’ve realised that we do not adjust the outhaul - it’s always set for a relatively flat foot. I’m thinking we could use that line for a fourth reef. Of course, mousing that fourth reef and reeving the reef line in the 45 knots plus when we’d want the fourth reef is going to be fun, not.

[Breaking Waves]

I did not mean to carry the thread off topic with the strop issue, nor to suggest it was better than other approaches. It's just what I do.

I was trained to sail back when competent yachtmen could do celestial and climb the rig bare handed (and not just the deck apes but guys like Olin Stevens could and did go up hand over hand at a rapid pace). I try to stay current but some of my practices have probably been 'overtaken by events'. I do personally still think a competent yachtsman should be able to confidently move around the deck in rough conditions; and should do routinely to inspect things and to check out any odd noises and to fix small things immediately before they chain reaction into bigger things. This would include things on the end of the boom - like (just as an example) a full batten getting caught oddly behind a reef line or lazy jack. I am aware there is currently a widespread philosophy that it is 'too dangerous' to do this. I disagree, I think it is 'too dangerous' not to do this. Enough said - a point of personal opinion and not worth debating at least on this thread.

As to the antal hooks - you can make your own with LFR's and soft shackle strops. Less expensive than antal, and you can then make any size/strength you need.

and on the OP's question "is an end-for-end tapered double braid splice (to dyneema single braid) even do-able?" Yes, it is doable, but not all that often done (at least for reef lines) because either getting a single braid line and putting some cover on it (for the clutches/winches), or getting a dyneema double braid and stripping off cover are usually rather easier.

PS: Oh, my boat I should use past tense, but the last one was a custom, fractional sloop w/ 50% ballast ratio, w/ a bit deeper canoe body than is racing/modern to minimize slamming. Did not need a lot of sail area to carry speed when it was windy, thus the ability to pack the mainsail away pretty easy on passage. It sailed really nicely. We lost our engine for most of our time in the Falklands and S. Georgia and it could sail on and off anchor really nicely, even in those really gusty conditions and tight coves. I have also recently spent a lot of time on a 112' Royal Huisman. There is a lot of work a couple m's up the mast and on the boom for reefing on it. It had a furling boom, but the current owner threw it out and put 4 slabs on.