StarLink Maritime Way Over Price

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Chris31415

This! When (if?) another provider enters the market and there is competition the price will come down.

Funny thing... people are already complaining about Elon putting up a bajillion satellites for this. I am pretty sure if someone else tries to do it will become a serious global issue. So Elon's got a lock on it for now... until someone nationalizes his network...

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

The way I understand it is the satellites for the stationary/RV system have to be in sight of a ground station to work, hence 12 miles or so from land. Offshore requires the laser linked satellites that bounce the signals around to sats that can see the ground stations. I think the plan is to eventually have all laser linked sats but they're not there yet. For those of us not crossing oceans, the RV service is fine and only a little more cost than cellular which doesn't work everywhere. Right now my boat's in St Charles, MO and not only does the marina satellite internet suck, but my ATT phones don't work at all. Don't know if Verizon is any better there. That's why I'm looking at Starlink too.

They're in a low earth orbit but not that low! The 12 mile thing was arbitrary geofencing. The actual limitations for non laser birds is how far you are from one of their ground stations. If you're in the right spot that can be far more than 12 miles offshore.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

The way I understand it is the satellites for the stationary/RV system have to be in sight of a ground station to work, hence 12 miles or so from land. Offshore requires the laser linked satellites that bounce the signals around to sats that can see the ground stations. I think the plan is to eventually have all laser linked sats but they're not there yet. For those of us not crossing oceans, the RV service is fine and only a little more cost than cellular which doesn't work everywhere. Right now my boat's in St Charles, MO and not only does the marina satellite internet suck, but my ATT phones don't work at all. Don't know if Verizon is any better there. That's why I'm looking at Starlink too.

The portability solution , ie Rv solution will have to do cruisers because there is nothing else from starlink available

The 12 mile limit largely exists so that starlink remains within its licensing agreements with that country. But it’s entirely arbitrary and starlink can adjust it at will

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The portability solution , ie Rv solution will have to do cruisers because there is nothing else from starlink available

The 12 mile limit largely exists so that starlink remains within its licensing agreements with that country. But it’s entirely arbitrary and starlink can adjust it at will

So much negativity on this thread, especially from you, Boating. As a vendor with a vested interest, I suppose it's your financial duty to spread FUD, but nobody knows (yet) what's going to happen, including you. And for me personally, it makes me not care for your views, since you don't know either but you choose to spread FUD. You should try a bit of optimism sometime. It's fun. And it makes you more liked (& listened to) by others.

Yes, the 12nm offshore limit is completely artificial. Starlink obviously hasn't defined cells out there yet, which you can see from their availability map. This will certainly change, & has already changed in the Med, which is now completely covered (which, you'll note, blurs any "international licensing limits" for Europe & north Africa, so I don't think this is a major factor - & there's no other countries off the US east or west coasts for thousands of miles).

Even now, cruisers are getting service covering much of the Caribbean. Since there are only 2 ground stations there AFAIK, both in Puerto Rico, it looks very much like Starlink is beginning to test their sat/sat laser-links, at least to the extent of allowing cruising boats to use a single-laser hop, since some of those contacts, especially those in Panama, are over 1,000nm from PR, so much too far for a single-satellite hop.

One of Starlink's stated goals is to beat an undersea cable link between NY & London. Lasers in space are ~40% faster than lasers in glass, & the boosters on a fiber, necessary every few miles, each add their own delays. There's a delay going through a satellite as well, but the hops are much longer, as the birds are much further apart in their orbits.

So the lasers will become a major part of the system. There are currently about 2,600 operational birds in orbit, with ~50 more joining the constellation every week, but about 1,000 of those are the v1.0 birds that don't have the lasers needed to communicate with other birds. The v1.0 birds can only relay a signal between a user & a ground station, with a max range of perhaps 600nm given orbital geometry, but an effective useful range of about 300nm.

The birds over North America & Europe can be very busy, but elsewhere they're loafing, & that's especially true over the oceans. Some will use that opportunity to boost back up to their orbits, which precludes using their radios, but the vast majority will have nothing to do except to check for any maritime traffic.

So it will cost Starlink nothing to handle traffic from, say, an RV system in the middle of the ocean. They may charge a bit more for this service, as they charge $25 more for RV (Roaming) service, but I'm not expecting it to be much more than that. And it's certain that we won't be taking bandwidth from anyone else (until we get to port).

Any Economics class will teach that a business needs to optimize the supply & demand curves to optimize revenue. Since it costs Starlink nothing to service a mid-ocean cruiser, it behooves them to price that service to maximize the number of cruisers. And Musk is a very savvy businessman, & not known for price-gouging (he could be getting MUCH more for his launches).

So I'm optimistic. Yes, we're not a big group, & yes, I can't predict the future any better than anyone else. But it would actually COST Starlink (& Musk) money (revenue) to price mid-ocean service such that cruisers won't buy it. This "Maritime" service that started this thread is obviously only for big ships, not us small-fry (& it's a significant savings & performance boost for them, compared to other current offerings).

So nix-panicus. We'll all know the answers in a while. This "Maritime" service isn't for us, & there are good reasons for Starlink to price their service reasonably for us when the time comes.

[r.stokes]

Originally Posted by Sailingwithgil

Has anybody check out the cost for Starlink Maritime on the web site the cost is to high for the average Joe to pay.www.starlink.com/maritime. There is no way I am going to pay 5K a month for the service and 10K for the hardware. We need to Blast Elon Musk's with a Bunch of emails saying we can not pay this kind of money for your service way to high for the average Joe to pay.
I hope In time it comes down to $135 a month that is OK for the cruising world to pay.

Maritime service is for large commercial vessels. For an "average" cruiser, buy the RV package..

[wholybee]

According to Jimmy Cornell, there are perhaps 8000-10000 boats voyaging worldwide. Many of those are in the Med and Caribbean.

To assess the approximate number of boats that are undertaking a long voyage, I estimate that worldwide there are approximately 8,000 either cruising in a certain area or actually voyaging. About half are in the Atlantic, 1,500 to 2,000 in the Pacific, 1,000 in the Indian Ocean, and 1,000 in the Mediterranean. This estimate is about twenty percent lower than the conclusion I drew in 2000 and 2010, when I reckoned that there were between 10,000 and 12,000 boats roaming the oceans of the world.

https://cornellsailing.com/2017/08/j...-the-boats-go/

Browsing marinetraffic.com, you see that compared to commercial traffic, there are almost no small boats voyaging. So, Jimmy's numbers really seem realistic.

Do some math. 8000 boats, less those in the Med and Caribbean that have coverage with an RV plan. Less those that Still use an SSB because any monthly fee at all is too expensive for their budget. And less those that stay coastal for extended periods and only need the RV plan. So you have a max customer base of what, a couple thousand boats? And how many of those would actually get it, instead of just keeping with what they have, SIM cards, etc. The number of actual small cruising boats that would subscribe to a cheap service that works in the middle of an ocean is probably in the hundreds, not thousands. Compare that to 500,000 subscribers Starlink already has. That is minimal growth almost unmeasurable compared to Starlink's current growth. And compare to the 10s of thousands of potential commercial boats and large yachts that have no problem paying $5k per month. They might have already sold as many 5k plans as would ever use a cheaper plan in the middle of the ocean.

It doesn't make economic sense to offer a plan that works in the middle of the ocean for cheap, because Starlink will be losing more $5K/month subscriptions to the lower service level than they would gain in new customers. It would be a net loss for them to offer such a service. Probably a very large net loss.

I do see at some point maybe they offer a lower marine service that only uses one antenna and half the bandwidth, for $2500 per month. But something that costs $150ish? Eventually, yes, but I think we are still a long way off.

And I also don't believe there is no cost to offer the service in the oceans. I believe there is a large cost. Whether it is to recoup investments in the lasers, which have been shown to not be needed for service over land and coastal, because of licensing or legal costs in other countries, or because time over the ocean is needed to re-orbit or perform maintenance on the satellites. All theories I have heard, and all seem to have merit, but I don't know. I just don't believe offering service over the ocean is free or almost free for Starlink, and I don't think we should expect it to be a similar price to service on land.

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

..snip..

Yes, the 12nm offshore limit is completely artificial. Starlink obviously hasn't defined cells out there yet, which you can see from their availability map. This will certainly change, & has already changed in the Med, which is now completely covered (which, you'll note, blurs any "international licensing limits" for Europe & north Africa, so I don't think this is a major factor - & there's no other countries off the US east or west coasts for thousands of miles).

Even now, cruisers are getting service covering much of the Caribbean. Since there are only 2 ground stations there AFAIK, both in Puerto Rico, it looks very much like Starlink is beginning to test their sat/sat laser-links, at least to the extent of allowing cruising boats to use a single-laser hop, since some of those contacts, especially those in Panama, are over 1,000nm from PR, so much too far for a single-…..

Spot on re the 12 mile limit. There are posts on FB with residential users taking their Starlink onto the boat and it works until 12 miles and then shuts down - but if they the pick up their phone and use the Starlink app to switch to RV sub , the dish starts working again. It’s an artificial limit imposed by Spacex.

I suspect Spacex want to make some money off the commercial users and that’s what the maritime package is for. They can offer a service that’s better and cheaper than the competition so why not go after it.

What they don’t want is commercial customers using the RV sub to provide a commercial service so hence the not in motion , same continent restriction etc.

I hope/suspect they will eventually relax the 12 mile limit on the RV and instead cap it with a max speed or some other limit that makes it unsuitable for the large commercials. Then we have an RV/Nomad service you could use just about anywhere.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by FabioC

. . . maybe my "old" $50 5G for when there is signal + iridiumGo for when there is no signal was not so bad after all... .

This is a perfectly good solution for 99% of cruisers, I think.

Mobile telephone data, at least in Europe, is so good and so cheap that you hardly need anything else. Many people even use at home and forget about a DSL or fiber connection. In Northern Europe, my mobile phone data is usually hundreds of mbs both down and up, almost indistinguishable from a good fiber optic home or office connection, and for €23 a month, completely unlimited with no fair use limits throughout the Nordic and Baltic region. Coverage is seamless and good to some miles out to sea.

If you do a lot of multiday passages outside of coverage, then the Go! is certainly enough for basic communications and weather.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

So it will cost Starlink nothing to handle traffic from, say, an RV system in the middle of the ocean. They may charge a bit more for this service, as they charge $25 more for RV (Roaming) service, but I'm not expecting it to be much more than that. And it's certain that we won't be taking bandwidth from anyone else (until we get to port).

The cost is that many of the commercial users can downgrade from the $5000 a month plan.

[Celestialsailor]

There is one constant in life...Change. Especially with technology. In a few years all this will look like dial up Internet.

[Moontide]

Jon Hacking - well said. Everyone complaining and claiming to know what is going to happen which are really pretty much uneducated guesses is almost funny. Seems many don't know the patience word.



If anything, I think Starlink has proven to be very responsive to their users and willing to re-look at their operations. One proof is how relatively quickly they came up with portability and RV options. Can you imagine a government operation or some company like GM or Ford changing so fast?


I have no doubt that they will continue to innovate and try to accommodate their customers needs - all we need to do is have some patience and let them do it.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

So much negativity on this thread, especially from you, Boating. As a vendor with a vested interest, I suppose it's your financial duty to spread FUD, but nobody knows (yet) what's going to happen, including you. And for me personally, it makes me not care for your views, since you don't know either but you choose to spread FUD. You should try a bit of optimism sometime. It's fun. And it makes you more liked (& listened to) by others.



Yes, the 12nm offshore limit is completely artificial. Starlink obviously hasn't defined cells out there yet, which you can see from their availability map. This will certainly change, & has already changed in the Med, which is now completely covered (which, you'll note, blurs any "international licensing limits" for Europe & north Africa, so I don't think this is a major factor - & there's no other countries off the US east or west coasts for thousands of miles).



Even now, cruisers are getting service covering much of the Caribbean. Since there are only 2 ground stations there AFAIK, both in Puerto Rico, it looks very much like Starlink is beginning to test their sat/sat laser-links, at least to the extent of allowing cruising boats to use a single-laser hop, since some of those contacts, especially those in Panama, are over 1,000nm from PR, so much too far for a single-satellite hop.



One of Starlink's stated goals is to beat an undersea cable link between NY & London. Lasers in space are ~40% faster than lasers in glass, & the boosters on a fiber, necessary every few miles, each add their own delays. There's a delay going through a satellite as well, but the hops are much longer, as the birds are much further apart in their orbits.



So the lasers will become a major part of the system. There are currently about 2,600 operational birds in orbit, with ~50 more joining the constellation every week, but about 1,000 of those are the v1.0 birds that don't have the lasers needed to communicate with other birds. The v1.0 birds can only relay a signal between a user & a ground station, with a max range of perhaps 600nm given orbital geometry, but an effective useful range of about 300nm.



The birds over North America & Europe can be very busy, but elsewhere they're loafing, & that's especially true over the oceans. Some will use that opportunity to boost back up to their orbits, which precludes using their radios, but the vast majority will have nothing to do except to check for any maritime traffic.



So it will cost Starlink nothing to handle traffic from, say, an RV system in the middle of the ocean. They may charge a bit more for this service, as they charge $25 more for RV (Roaming) service, but I'm not expecting it to be much more than that. And it's certain that we won't be taking bandwidth from anyone else (until we get to port).



Any Economics class will teach that a business needs to optimize the supply & demand curves to optimize revenue. Since it costs Starlink nothing to service a mid-ocean cruiser, it behooves them to price that service to maximize the number of cruisers. And Musk is a very savvy businessman, & not known for price-gouging (he could be getting MUCH more for his launches).



So I'm optimistic. Yes, we're not a big group, & yes, I can't predict the future any better than anyone else. But it would actually COST Starlink (& Musk) money (revenue) to price mid-ocean service such that cruisers won't buy it. This "Maritime" service that started this thread is obviously only for big ships, not us small-fry (& it's a significant savings & performance boost for them, compared to other current offerings).



So nix-panicus. We'll all know the answers in a while. This "Maritime" service isn't for us, & there are good reasons for Starlink to price their service reasonably for us when the time comes.

I’m not a vendor of anything

And any business will tell you that niche cheap customers arnt worth supporting.

The usage factor argument is nonsense the fibre optic passing my foot only serves another house. Funnily I don’t pay any less then people in large housing estates where 100s are on one fibre.

Starlink has a trans ocean product aimed competitively at a sector that’s used to paying much more. Why would they hollow out their own marketing strategy providing a cheap version to a handful of ocean cruisers. It’s makes zero sense

Given there isn’t a Med based plan that’s warranted from starlink ( ie In motion ) I’m not sure what the coverage on the med sea actually is.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I’m not a vendor of anything

And any business will tell you that niche cheap customers arnt worth supporting.

The usage factor argument is nonsense the fibre optic passing my foot only serves another house. Funnily I don’t pay any less then people in large housing estates where 100s are on one fibre.

Starlink has a trans ocean product aimed competitively at a sector that’s used to paying much more. Why would they hollow out their own marketing strategy providing a cheap version to a handful of ocean cruisers. It’s makes zero sense

Given there isn’t a Med based plan that’s warranted from starlink ( ie In motion ) I’m not sure what the coverage on the med sea actually is.

Your last sentence is actually very interesting. Since the original "beta", Starlink has done a masterful job of avoiding any complaints for poor service by quite cleverly getting users to think they're basically all test cases getting service beyond what they're actually paying for. Therefore when it doesn't work out perfectly, users cut them a lot of slack. If your FIOS internet cuts out randomly you're angry, but if your Starlink 30 miles offshore cuts out randomly you're just happy to have it at all and probably won't complain. I wouldn't be surprised if their price discrimination strategy is that they purposely leave the ambiguity for the nonprofessional subscriptions and let us have service at a "best effort" level, which frankly most of us are probably happy with. Maybe they even purposely screw it up randomly just enough to make it unsuitable for pro use but fine for us. So the pros stay with the pro subscription and we stay with the RV subscription and everyone is basically happy.

[Jon Hacking]

Originally Posted by Anders

The cost is that many of the commercial users can downgrade from the $5000 a month plan.

Good point, Anders, & I should have addressed that.

Big ships generally have to use specially approved SOLAS (Safety of Life at Sea) equipment. Cruisers (& even some smaller ships) don't.

So one potential solution is to only get the expensive "Maritime" equipment SOLAS certified. Boats that can't afford the Maritime package might still subscribe to the Roaming (or whatever other marine-ish offer Starlink comes up with) package. It behooves Starlink to offer SOMEthing for us small-fry, especially if their alternative is no revenue at all. They're certainly not altruistic, but they're very interested in maximizing revenue (customers) to make back the costs of putting the system together in the first place.

I still submit that the incremental cost to Starlink of an additional offshore customer is essentially zero. And while us cruisers aren't a large group, there are a LOT of tramp-freighters & other smaller ships that would like even minimal Starlink service but can't afford (& don't need) the Maritime package.

As has been pointed out, SpaceX isn't stupid, so they'll come up with something, even if it's just letting the RV package work at sea but not warranting it for that purpose. This seems to be what's happening now, & would save them from having to come up with a different package for us, which might involve tooling costs.

It's going to be interesting to watch this space unfold.

[scottmc59]

we have the rv version. It works in Bahamas I'm told.