Some Cats are double the price of others ?

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

In the land of wine and cheese!

And baguettes, ...

[jmh2002]

And croissants, and, and, and...

How do they have time to build boats?

[Gin-N-Sonic]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Better than bene? YES.


2 x better? Define "2x" ;-)


It is clearly better - no keels falling off, no creaking sounds in the seaway, no rudders bent and leaking, etc.


Also better interior materials, etc.


Bene is built to charter standards Amel is built to owner's standards.


Amels brings in the Oyster factor, Bene gives you a Bava factor.


Whether the differences are worth anything to the buyer depends on each buyer's priorities, likes and dislikes. And since they are still in the business at "2x" the price, it is a proof it is the case (2x better).


You and me can disagree, the owners have voted with their wallets.


b.

To some this answer may seem harsh, but it is the truth that remains.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by fivecapes

Again, nowhere did I bring up a quality discrepancy.



Their previous business/pricing model didn't work, they went tits up, got bought out, lowered labor costs by moving to Vietnam, keep same pricing, brand gets to survive another day. Savings that aren't passed to customers today are profits they weren't making before in Oz.

Yeah? They were in business for 30 years in Australia, they didn't get bought out, they (Seawind) bought Corsair not the other way round.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Also. Sweden known for Volvo, Hasselblad and Electrolux (and Spotify and Assa Abloy). Vietnam known for nice smiling people in straw hats eating rice.

Vietnam also known for kicking the French and the Yanks out of their country

Where are Outremers built then?

France

[Teleman]

I only read the thread title. My first thought was that 2,000 kg of Mercedes Benz costs a lot more than 2,000 kg of Hyundai.

[CatNewBee]

The base price for a cat isn't high, the Lagoon 42 was about 260k EUR, but the option list for the basic package, (you have to choose one of three), transport, watering, rigging, antifouling, safety package and tax adds another 100k, the comfort package with generator, AC, watermaker etc another 60k, bigger engines, folding props, bowsprit and code0,... Another 60k...in the end it is double the list prize.

On the other hand an eXquisite X5 costs 1million flat with all options included, so even cheaper than a 50ft Lagoon with all options, an Antares 44 is 1.2 million and the Privilege goes for almost 2 million. Leopard, Fountaine Pajot and Lagoon are at the same price range, they focus on the same market. Not always production cats are cheap, and high quality small series are expensive. There are other builders, like gunboat, seawind, Sunreef, Neel, Catana, Bavaria, Bali, Nautitech. Visited the factories of Bali and Nautitech. Lot of manual work, very little automation. Unfortunately Lagoon and FP where in the vacancies when we toured factories, so we could not arrange for a tour.

There are similar prices and huge price differences, and both are sometimes not justified. If you walk the cats side by side, Bali 40, Nautech, FP Lucia and Lagoon 40, Leopard 40 there are huge differences in the space in the hulls, interior living space, galleys, furniture and detail solutions, exterieur living space, rigging. Often same instruments, but really different look and feel for liveability, even they use the same gear and Ikea style materials.

Just go to a boat show and tour them side by side.

[xrudi]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Agreed. Since Seawind moved to Vietnam their boats have improved in several areas.

They're now resin infused, so lighter and stronger.

A very visible difference is in the stainless steel work, pulpits, railings etc. The quality of the welding is really excellent, so good they don't even look like welds, it's as if the stainless flowed into those shapes.

I supervised the building of the first liquefied Gas tanks in Indonesia. I was the responsible welding engineer. We trained about 600 welders. All pipes on deck were stainless steel and welded. 100% of the joints were checked to GL rules and x-rayed. We had less than 1.5% claims. The quantity was excellent.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by xrudi

I supervised the building of the first liquefied Gas tanks in Indonesia. I was the responsible welding engineer. We trained about 600 welders. All pipes on deck were stainless steel and welded. 100% of the joints were checked to GL rules and x-rayed. We had less than 1.5% claims. The quantity was excellent.

And at their low labor rates, they can spend all day polishing the welds to perfection!

Matt

[Happ]

Originally Posted by LuvSun

I look at what I can get with seawind for $410k vs the same basic outfit with Outremer is $950k USD.

Keep in mind these are base prices and I am looking at 5-10yr used as well.

Seawind 1160 lite is a fast Cat, it also has a luxurious indoor outdoor flow with that sliding door that opens into the roof. I like the glass can we lowered so you are no viewing glass through glass when at a helm, also you have a window above to see what the sails are doing.

Im trying to see where the difference in base price of the Outremer is? Some I know prefer an open helm/cockpit, for me the Seawinds are fine.

I dont mean to pick on Outremer here, clearly they make amazing boats.

But on the used market for the price of a new Seawind you are buying 15-20yo Outremer, which may or may not need a major over haul.

Any thoughts of other performance cats that are good value for money?

You are clearly comparing new boat prices not 10-20 year old boats. I recently sailed an Outremer 5X from Beaufort NC to Montauk on Long Island. Construction is a huge part of the equation. Outremers are built with a fair amount of Carbon Fibre and foam core. Sea winds are built with fiberglass and I believe balsa core. This along with one is built in Europe and Seawind are now built in Vietnam.

[Sea Wolf]

Try this one. It’s a 1979 that had a complete refit in 2008. She’s beautiful and very well maintained. https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/197...uasar-3503812/

[Stephen2258]

Outremer and Seawind are two really different boats. I don't think they can be compared. Certaimly not Apples to Apples. I'm saying this because the Outremer is touted as a high performance, semi-custom boat. Prices reflect their differences between the 2 boats. The fact that one is bult in France and one in Vietnam certainly affects the prices of the two. There's more to say about the differences of the two boats when a closer comparison is made.

[xrudi]

Originally Posted by Stephen2258

Outremer and Seawind are two really different boats. I don't think they can be compared. Certaimly not Apples to Apples. I'm saying this because the Outremer is touted as a high performance, semi-custom boat. Prices reflect their differences between the 2 boats. The fact that one is bult in France and one in Vietnam certainly affects the prices of the two. There's more to say about the differences of the two boats when a closer comparison is made.

My boat "Catiana" was build from Vinyl Ester with Divinycell foam and 3 axial hand stitched mat in a female mold. (I'm not too sure about the spelling). The lamination was done in an AC room to keep the air humidity own. The boat was 2o years in the water and I found no osmosis bubble on the hull. I hope it has something with these measures.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Happ

You are clearly comparing new boat prices not 10-20 year old boats. I recently sailed an Outremer 5X from Beaufort NC to Montauk on Long Island. Construction is a huge part of the equation. Outremers are built with a fair amount of Carbon Fibre and foam core. Sea winds are built with fiberglass and I believe balsa core. This along with one is built in Europe and Seawind are now built in Vietnam.

I believe Seawind’s are foam not balsa core. At least the 2 that I owned were.

[phlbald]

Originally Posted by Happ

. Sea winds are built with fiberglass and I believe balsa core. This along with one is built in Europe and Seawind are now built in Vietnam.

There is no Balsa on a New Seawind.