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Old 06-10-2024, 07:09   #16
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

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Frequent events? No. Outboard powered boats used on lakes and for coastal cruising suffer the same probabilities with an explosion as a boat offshore due to using gasoline, which is so low it’s not worth talking about. If you want the ultimate sailing lifestyle it’s safer to do behind the computer screen watching YouTube.
On a Seawind 1000 you can fit at least 640w of solar on the radar arch which is hardly ever shaded. I’m guessing you could also fit another 600-700 watts on top of the Bimini if needed. The Seawind 1000 originally came with 2 140x Kyocera panels which seemed to have no problem running the simple systems on the boat.
As stated before, all depends on how much power hungry crap you feel the need to own.
It's the amount you take with for offshore and with that exponentially the risk rises. And with the size of tank comes then also it's location.
Cars get smaller and smaller fuel tanks same lake and coastal boats have small tanks. If you take distance/long range cars you find mainly diesel. Yes sure exceptions as always.
Same with gas for the galley.
Also how safe both is, depends heavily on maintenance. Neglect a gas and gasoline powered boat and you sit on a bomb...diesel and a proper install lithium+electrical galley nope.

Yes the seawind can fit enough solar and nearly sails in all conditions...a PDQ, Prout...not means you need more gasoline. And that it sails well it needs to be kept light, so yes basic systems on one side a multifunctional on the other. Still the biggest power honks are your water heater (no hot water from a diesel) and the watermaker which you also need to keep water tanks smaller=less weight. A cloudy week and you are in trouble without an alternative powersource to solar.
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Old 06-10-2024, 08:26   #17
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

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Originally Posted by CaptainRivet View Post
It's the amount you take with for offshore and with that exponentially the risk rises. And with the size of tank comes then also it's location.
Cars get smaller and smaller fuel tanks same lake and coastal boats have small tanks. If you take distance/long range cars you find mainly diesel. Yes sure exceptions as always.
Same with gas for the galley.
Also how safe both is, depends heavily on maintenance. Neglect a gas and gasoline powered boat and you sit on a bomb...diesel and a proper install lithium+electrical galley nope.

Yes the seawind can fit enough solar and nearly sails in all conditions...a PDQ, Prout...not means you need more gasoline. And that it sails well it needs to be kept light, so yes basic systems on one side a multifunctional on the other. Still the biggest power honks are your water heater (no hot water from a diesel) and the watermaker which you also need to keep water tanks smaller=less weight. A cloudy week and you are in trouble without an alternative powersource to solar.
Whether you’re carrying 15 gallons of gas or 50 if there’s an explosion the results will be the same.
I believe I already stated the boat has to be setup safely for the use of gasoline, which both the Seawind and PDQ are.
Both diesel and gasoline systems need to be well maintained. A friend had a diesel soaked rag sitting below his engine in his plywood boat, it caught on fire. Diesel doesn’t make you immune to what may happen.
PDQ’s and Prouts have put in many happy miles with whatever solar they carry. As I’ve stated numerous times it all depends on how much power hungry crao you feel you need.
Please tell us of the outboard cats you’ve owned and your experiance with them.
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Old 06-10-2024, 08:48   #18
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

CF is a fantastic resource, thank you everyone for your help! Most of my model discovery has been YachtWorld current listings, so thank you for filling in the gaps. I'll certainly do a more expansive search (with broker/surveys) when I am closer to being ready, but now have some models to focus on. I didn't notice before, most of the Seawind listings under $200k are in Australia.

The PDQ 32/36 look like good choices. Similar-ish to Prout though the layout looks better, and without the big nacelle, so I assume less slamming? What is the headroom like in the PDQ36 salon? How long are the forward cabin beds (head wall to toe wall)?

That C-Cat 37 looks nice, though with exposed helm. I could finance $300k, but there would probably be a lot of addons to make it passage-ready, so I'd rather do a used $250k that is sail-ready.

I saw a Stealth 12m recently that had galley up and two 25hp outboards, but $300k. I'll have to watch for a 10.6. A rare smaller Schionning maybe too.

Can a solo passage making cat be insured against hull loss (I'm in USA)? I've seen mixed comments about that. I'll have a satellite device, EPIRB and a liferaft. "Stepping up" from an uninsured $100-150k loss is an easier financial hit than $250k, though hope to never have those circumstances.

> During solo passages in a galley down, do you just pop up for a look every 15 minutes or so? Or just only eat food that is quick and easy?
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Old 06-10-2024, 09:16   #19
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

Don’t think you would have a need to step into a liferaft from a PDQ 36. Pretty cool story.
http://www.pdqforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=11714&hilit=Flipped#p11714
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Old 07-10-2024, 06:27   #20
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
Whether you’re carrying 15 gallons of gas or 50 if there’s an explosion the results will be the same.
I believe I already stated the boat has to be setup safely for the use of gasoline, which both the Seawind and PDQ are.
Both diesel and gasoline systems need to be well maintained. A friend had a diesel soaked rag sitting below his engine in his plywood boat, it caught on fire. Diesel doesn’t make you immune to what may happen.
PDQ’s and Prouts have put in many happy miles with whatever solar they carry. As I’ve stated numerous times it all depends on how much power hungry crao you feel you need.
Please tell us of the outboard cats you’ve owned and your experiance with them.
The point is IF there is an explosion. I am a motor surveyor and with gasoline it plays a big role how much gas can evaporate and that goes exponentially up with the amount. And with the amount it is the way how and where it's stored.
Situation is similar in an RV then in an boat.
15 gallon is mostly stored in 2 portable outboard tanks being outside when used and if anythings leaks you see it immediately and gas automatically evaporates out in the surrounding without any danger unless you smoke a cigarette while handling gasoline...the amount of gas from 10 gallon is relatively small and if there is normal ventilation lasts about 3 days, then no explosion can happen.
50 or 100 gallons are inbuilt below deck tanks where the tank or piping can leak or vents are clogged and /or blowers quit working. Nothing of that you see, or at least easily and if blower is sucking it outside you cannot smell it. Not doing maintenance one or more of pipes/tubes will break. The gas amount of 50 gallon normal ventilation won't do it at all and even stronger blowers as soon as you shut off everything is filled with gas within 1 sec and that over month if not year and if one spark...booooommmm.
I owned mono with outboard, motorboat with outboards but no cat with outboards. Don't see why the cats should be different here.
An gasoline outboard can just do propulsion and if lucky a small alternator capable of topping up/floating a starter.
A small 10 or 20hp diesel can besides propulsion produce hot water and drive a big alternator, with a wakespeed a huge one that's just scaled back when propulsion even in relation to RPM. If with shaft you can even add a shaft generator and regen. So when you use the engine for propulsion you also produce a lot energy for the battery and as backup without propulsion fill you whole bank from 20 to 80% in 30min.
On a small cat as much as possible should be multipurpose and every kilo weight counts, a 35ft is quickly overloaded and then sails like a shipping container independent if performance or condo....
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Old 07-10-2024, 06:49   #21
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterJim View Post
CF is a fantastic resource, thank you everyone for your help! Most of my model discovery has been YachtWorld current listings, so thank you for filling in the gaps. I'll certainly do a more expansive search (with broker/surveys) when I am closer to being ready, but now have some models to focus on. I didn't notice before, most of the Seawind listings under $200k are in Australia.

The PDQ 32/36 look like good choices. Similar-ish to Prout though the layout looks better, and without the big nacelle, so I assume less slamming? What is the headroom like in the PDQ36 salon? How long are the forward cabin beds (head wall to toe wall)?

That C-Cat 37 looks nice, though with exposed helm. I could finance $300k, but there would probably be a lot of addons to make it passage-ready, so I'd rather do a used $250k that is sail-ready.

I saw a Stealth 12m recently that had galley up and two 25hp outboards, but $300k. I'll have to watch for a 10.6. A rare smaller Schionning maybe too.

Can a solo passage making cat be insured against hull loss (I'm in USA)? I've seen mixed comments about that. I'll have a satellite device, EPIRB and a liferaft. "Stepping up" from an uninsured $100-150k loss is an easier financial hit than $250k, though hope to never have those circumstances.

> During solo passages in a galley down, do you just pop up for a look every 15 minutes or so? Or just only eat food that is quick and easy?
For solo sailing a must is a doppler and marpa radar. I would choose the B&G Halo 20 plus.
You put zone alarm (eg one 5nm and one 2nm) and marpa alarm on and if any object entering the zones you get an alarm and still have tons of time to check and react. Also Marpa alarm throws an alarm if that object is on collision course.
So check visually, enable the alarms and go cooking, toilet, mas... or do whatever you want as long as there is no alarm. Check visually when it's comfortable.
Even with galley up cats most have the galley facing backwards. Buddy has a Webcam on top of mast facing forward and simply broadcast it on a tablet you can take down into galley.
Sure don't leave the helm if you are in a very busy shipping street, habour entrance or inlet.
If I go single handed on passage, I prefer to cook before so I don't have to cook underway and just can warm up or have the salad prepared and just have to put the sauce over. Refillable capsules filled to have a coffee by pressing a button on the nespresso.....The less tasks you have underway single handed the better it is.
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Old 07-10-2024, 07:14   #22
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainRivet View Post
The point is IF there is an explosion. I am a motor surveyor and with gasoline it plays a big role how much gas can evaporate and that goes exponentially up with the amount. And with the amount it is the way how and where it's stored.
Situation is similar in an RV then in an boat.
15 gallon is mostly stored in 2 portable outboard tanks being outside when used and if anythings leaks you see it immediately and gas automatically evaporates out in the surrounding without any danger unless you smoke a cigarette while handling gasoline...the amount of gas from 10 gallon is relatively small and if there is normal ventilation lasts about 3 days, then no explosion can happen.
50 or 100 gallons are inbuilt below deck tanks where the tank or piping can leak or vents are clogged and /or blowers quit working. Nothing of that you see, or at least easily and if blower is sucking it outside you cannot smell it. Not doing maintenance one or more of pipes/tubes will break. The gas amount of 50 gallon normal ventilation won't do it at all and even stronger blowers as soon as you shut off everything is filled with gas within 1 sec and that over month if not year and if one spark...booooommmm.
I owned mono with outboard, motorboat with outboards but no cat with outboards. Don't see why the cats should be different here.
An gasoline outboard can just do propulsion and if lucky a small alternator capable of topping up/floating a starter.
A small 10 or 20hp diesel can besides propulsion produce hot water and drive a big alternator, with a wakespeed a huge one that's just scaled back when propulsion even in relation to RPM. If with shaft you can even add a shaft generator and regen. So when you use the engine for propulsion you also produce a lot energy for the battery and as backup without propulsion fill you whole bank from 20 to 80% in 30min.
On a small cat as much as possible should be multipurpose and every kilo weight counts, a 35ft is quickly overloaded and then sails like a shipping container independent if performance or condo....
As I’ve stated numerous times, it relies on a safe installation. All outboard cats I’ve owned have the gas tanks and all gas lines run on the outside of the boat with all gas tanks vented through the bridgedeck.
Bottom line is you should stick with a diesel?
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Old 07-10-2024, 07:24   #23
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

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As I’ve stated numerous times, it relies on a safe installation. All outboard cats I’ve owned have the gas tanks and all gas lines run on the outside of the boat with all gas tanks vented through the bridgedeck.
Bottom line is you should stick with a diesel?
Correct savely installed and properly maintained every time...diesel is much more tolerant to mistakes and neglectance then gasoline.

Yes I prefer a small shaft driven diesel to an outboard but I could life on a TRT or an Asia catamaran with an outboard as the auxiliary get very little use and a Honda semi premanent installed and connected to the outboard tanks is a sufficent backup to solar
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Old 07-10-2024, 07:35   #24
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

For 520lbs, all in, i have:

Twin 30hp engines AND 6kw of generator power with redundant backups of both propulsion and generator power (3kw each generator)

That’s why gasoline on a cat. Far less weight involved for far more power

Additionally, and i know this is because my cat is custom, the outboards create zero drag as they lift out of the water when not in use

Gasoline storage below decks is not much of a problem.

150 gallons of gasoline in 3x50 gallon tanks.

vented at the deck fills, tanks are atmospheric pressure, have sipping tube style pickups through the top of the tank.

gasoline is drawn up from these pickups to an on deck “explosives box” where there is a fuel lift pump and tank selection manifold as well as fuel filter and water separator.

this box is on the bridgedeck and open to the air/sea below.

my propane tanks (and paint/adhesives/resins) live in here too

from this box, there are fuel lines heading to the outboards and generators under pressure. before this box there are continuous fuel lines under vacuum from the tanks . all fuel lines are top of the line, super heavy duty brand name marine fuel hose. trident i think?? they are continuous without joints other than in the explosives box

I think gasoline is a very appropriate fuel for Catamaran. It does have to be done correctly, however
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Old 07-10-2024, 08:12   #25
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

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For 520lbs, all in, i have:

Twin 30hp engines AND 6kw of generator power with redundant backups of both propulsion and generator power (3kw each generator)

That’s why gasoline on a cat. Far less weight involved for far more power

Additionally, and i know this is because my cat is custom, the outboards create zero drag as they lift out of the water when not in use

Gasoline storage below decks is not much of a problem.

150 gallons of gasoline in 3x50 gallon tanks.

vented at the deck fills, tanks are atmospheric pressure, have sipping tube style pickups through the top of the tank.

gasoline is drawn up from these pickups to an on deck “explosives box” where there is a fuel lift pump and tank selection manifold as well as fuel filter and water separator.

this box is on the bridgedeck and open to the air/sea below.

my propane tanks (and paint/adhesives/resins) live in here too

from this box, there are fuel lines heading to the outboards and generators under pressure. before this box there are continuous fuel lines under vacuum from the tanks . all fuel lines are top of the line, super heavy duty brand name marine fuel hose. trident i think?? they are continuous without joints other than in the explosives box

I think gasoline is a very appropriate fuel for Catamaran. It does have to be done correctly, however
Yes you can make gasoline quite safe but need a clean and top notch installation that needs proper maintenance for that.
Diesel is much easier to store and installation+ maintenance much more mistake and neglectance tolerant.
For 560lbs you get 2x 20hp yanmars with SD25 and big alternators using less fuel per h means you need to store less amount for the same motoring distance (which will compensate the additional 40lbs to your setup) and avoid having the complex gasoline tank setup with explosion box.
Yes you have the props in the water and cannot retract them. And you have a performance cat so auxiliary rarely used that's why an retractable outboard makes sense to improve the 95% sailing time even more. Assume you have 30hp 2-strokes. Fully understand your choice and most likely also cheaper then the 2 yanmars with beefy alternators plus you have the knowledge and the attitude to detail and safety. Not all people have that or even understand what maintenances need to be done and which risks they facing by neglecting maintenance on gasoline tank install.

And the weight and performance results compared to yours will look different with any 35ft heavily loaded for liveaboard...
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Old 07-10-2024, 09:51   #26
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

That's quite a story about that PDQ. Shame the coast guard shot and chopped it up when they could have just closed a hatch and pumped it out. There's probably more to the circumstances than that thread tells though.

You have satisfied my inquiry for models and galley location. For now, I'm leaning toward the Seawind 1000XL or PDQ 36 (comes in both fuels; 32 has a better view, but 36 has more capacity and better for passages). Now I need to find some in person. When I am ready to buy, I will certainly also look for any available choices among the lower production makes (Shuttleworth, Maine Cat, Stealth, Schionning, Woods, etc.).

Radar and AIS seem essential for solo. I really like the webcam on the mast idea too. That makes sense to maintain watch when in a busy area or when traffic is around, but otherwise can be below deck with alarms/cams/timers for galley/head/rest/etc.


I certainly understand gas vs. diesel is controversial and has pros and cons for both sides. I've seen many other threads on CF head in that direction. This is a whole other tangent, and there are probably other threads that covered it, but any thoughts on this:

- Repower a boat made for twin outboards to have twin electric, enough battery for 1-2 hours of runtime (marinas/harbors), plus a small diesel genset when needed for weather, etc. Twin 5-6kW appear roughly comparable to twin 10HP gas for something like a Seawind or PDQ, so a gen should have at least 5kW to run them at a reasonable speed for longer periods.

Are there any "portable" diesel generators, that could handle 5-10kW continuous? I haven't seen much between $5k+ bulky marine diesel gens or basic 10HP diesels for $300 (meant for lawn equipment), that you could attach a big alternator to.

Even a $300 10HP is 90 pounds, so not very portable/stowable, while a 1-cylinder Yanmar is 160 pounds. I guess the issue is a generator larger than a Honda will need to be installed in a hull, so why not just put a prop on it too? And the Honda only does 2kw, so may be okay for the doldrums, but not a storm.
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Old 07-10-2024, 12:08   #27
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

My boat had 2 x 2stroke in-boards, a real dream, no maintenance no oil changes, just a box of spark plugs, hated the day we converted to diesel. We got a discount on our insurance for NOT having gas (butane/propane) but no penalty for having gasolene (petrol) engines. All of the tankage (50gals) was over the bridge deck and the compartment had no electrics in it.
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Old 07-10-2024, 12:56   #28
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

math check: yanmar 2gm20f 18hp 260lbs (dry) or 2ym15 14hp 250lbs, plus sd25 65lbs (gearbox weight similar for shaft drive), so twin yanmar diesels you're well over 600+ lbs at minimum
beta (kubota) 20, 230lbs (dry), volvo D1/md2020, (perkins, shibaura) 2cyl similar or heavier than yanmars

suzuki 20hp efi ~120lbs (wet, power tilt), honda/tohatsu 50/60hp ~215lbs
(other modern options in between the those two points like yamaha 25ht ~160lbs)

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portable diesel generators
Marine environment is not really suitable use-case for a 5-10kw "portable" generator, gas or diesel. The 1-2kw honda inverter generator that you might use to run some tools or other projects - is not in any way comparable. So you are talking a permanent install- ~3200rpm compact 5kw class marine diesel generators exist from companies such as northern lights. New, they will cost ya. one of the most compact/light (diesel) platforms is the kubota "super mini" base engine, though I'm certainly not up to date.
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Old 07-10-2024, 13:13   #29
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

Perhaps design of outboard powered boats has progressed from ones I have owned, but to my mind a significant issue with an outboard is keeping the propellor in the water while in any sort of seaway. Here in the pacific there are many lagoon entrances where the only safe way to enter is to motor and often there is rough water due to tidal flow.
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Old 07-10-2024, 15:02   #30
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Re: Solo, outboards, galley-up?

yeah, the diesel weight numbers were off by quite a bit.

I’m happy to share this specific models if anyone wants to double check my numbers
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