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Ulstue · 07-05-2023, 23:19

Dear owners of a Fountaine Pajot Saona 47 or Tanna 47

These catamarans are advertised as having speeds over 20Knts, and more than 17Knts SOG at 20Knts TWS.
My Lagoon 450 is the same length as these two Fontaine Pajots, just a little wider, and has a little more sail area, at least as far as standard sails are concerned.

Nevertheless, I have to admit that I am already very happy when we reach SOG above 10Knts. The highest was in the surf down the wave maybe a few seconds 17Knts. So I already look a little envious, and consider a change.

Are the Saona/ Tanna 47 really that fast? Or one of the usual advertising lies? How fast are you at 20Knts TWS? What was your highest speed with which sail?

Edit: Additional question: The weight data are often fanciful. According to advertisment the L450 weighs 15.5T. In the Specs it is empty 16.9 T, for Category A allowed is 22T. Mine weighs fully equipped for family cruising, but with empty tanks in the travel lift about 18T. So on the water up to an additional 850Kg of diesel and 750Kg of water round about 20T. How heavy are your boats not according to specs, but real?

yeloya · 08-05-2023, 06:59

I have sailed a L450 but not Saona. I can tell 100% that Saona or L 450 can not make 17 kts of SOG with 20 kts of TW, it simply is impossible unless one surfs down a big waves. This speed is even very difficult with Catana 47 and Outremer 51 that I have sailed extensively, you need a flat see (at 20 kts of wind ??) and very favorable angle of wind for very short period of time..
Cheers

Yeloya

Tupaia · 08-05-2023, 09:32

It would seem that https://www.caribbean-multihulls.com...ajot/saona-47/ are promoting this.

"Performance and speed on board the Saona 47

Let's start with facts: The Saona 47 can perform at 17kn with a 20 knots true wind speed."

Shown alongside a Polar with boat speeds just touching 12knots (in 30knots??)

This all seems to have originated from a caption only, in a Youtube video by Yachtsale.se that was discussed in a previous post https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ts-240668.html

Suggest anyone buying from them should insist a signed agreement for a full refund on failure to perform as stated.

From an owners viewpoint Chris Johnston owner of SVBonova compiled real world Polars.

https://svbonova.com/wp-content/uplo...r-updated.xlsx

Double digits are a rare event at any wind speed.

A very detailed test is also referenced on Fountain-Pajot's own site https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...rQVZlSbUWsMl9x

A very respectable peak speed on 13.7 knots is recorded but in considerably more wind speed.

It is a shame that misleading information (17knots in 20knots) is promoted in such away as it leads to disappointment and unrealistic expectations that malignes the whole marine industry.

The "truth" is Saona and Tanna are excellent boats with outstanding attributes but sustaining 17 knots is not one of them.

arsenelupiga · 08-05-2023, 22:19

i am actually thinking about that right now. Enough sail and wind will do the trick. However one needs to look at reefing table. Invariably, reefing table has to be ignored to push boat out of bow wave. And that is the point where structure damage may come from. As boat is designed to take forces at max reefing point, say 23kn app with full sail at 90 app for L 400, there must be margin built in to cater for waves etc. So, if seas are okay, one could use that margin to push boat out of bow wave and start surfing. This force is directly linked to weight. More weight, bigger force required hence more chance of something going wrong.

Our L 400 loaded around 50 % capacity cannot surf following reefing rules under 130 true. Stronger boats could, but beam waves can cause trouble.

Once boat surfs, force required to keep it surfing decreases.

My plan is to use asym & main at around 140 true and go for it. There is no limit in reefing table for 140 true, except 15 kn boat speed.

I know now where to look to see if boat is overstressed. You better have this sorted out before.

django37 · 09-05-2023, 00:46

I think you can come close to 17 knots, but:
The boat needs to be empty
Folding props, clean bottom
Full main and genoa in at least 35 knots wind, the genoa sheeted to the spring clamp
Main traveller fully out, TWA about 130 dgr
Mainsheet 2 times around the winsh and hand holded
Flat water, ready to bear off and release mainsheet
Yes, I have sailed the Saona, and I believe most of the condomarams can do this, my L380 can.
but this is not for everyone ...

Tupaia · 09-05-2023, 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by django37

I think you can come close to 17 knots, but:
The boat needs to be empty
Folding props, clean bottom
Full main and genoa in at least 35 knots wind, the genoa sheeted to the spring clamp
Main traveller fully out, TWA about 130 dgr
Mainsheet 2 times around the winsh and hand holded
Flat water, ready to bear off and release mainsheet
Yes, I have sailed the Saona, and I believe most of the condomarams can do this, my L380 can.
but this is not for everyone ...

(17knots in 20knots) this is the claim. So you would concur, it is not possible.

SailFastTri · 09-05-2023, 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by django37

I think you can come close to 17 knots, but:
The boat needs to be empty
Folding props, clean bottom
Full main and genoa in at least 35 knots wind, the genoa sheeted to the spring clamp
Main traveller fully out, TWA about 130 dgr
Mainsheet 2 times around the winsh and hand holded
Flat water, ready to bear off and release mainsheet
Yes, I have sailed the Saona, and I believe most of the condomarams can do this, my L380 can.
but this is not for everyone ...

I believe a Lagoon 380 can hit 17k in a hurricane.

Snore · 09-05-2023, 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by django37

I think you can come close to 17 knots, but:
The boat needs to be empty
Folding props, clean bottom
Full main and genoa in at least 35 knots wind, the genoa sheeted to the spring clamp
Main traveller fully out, TWA about 130 dgr
Mainsheet 2 times around the winsh and hand holded
Flat water, ready to bear off and release mainsheet
Yes, I have sailed the Saona, and I believe most of the condomarams can do this, my L380 can.
but this is not for everyone ...

This is simply bad advice. Having more sail up than the manual recommends is a great way to damage or lose a rig. If you are lucky, you just crack a ferrule.

At 35 the boat should be triple reefed. Ideally you want TWA <90 so load is spread to the forestay.

Edit—- also a great way to blow out the sails. When overloaded, the fabric will lose its shape

FlyingScot · 09-05-2023, 12:15

SOG = speed over ground. Sure any boat can do 17kts in 20TWS but only with a 10 kts favorable current.

What you should be asking is STW (Speed Through Water) and no, it would be insane for most live aboard cats to routinely travel at 17kts. Most cruising sailboats travel between 5-10 kts (being generous) under passage.

arsenelupiga · 09-05-2023, 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snore

This is simply bad advice. Having more sail up than the manual recommends is a great way to damage or lose a rig. If you are lucky, you just crack a ferrule.

At 35 the boat should be triple reefed. Ideally you want TWA <90 so load is spread to the forestay.

Edit—- also a great way to blow out the sails. When overloaded, the fabric will lose its shape

devil is in the details. I have observed once when seawind was sailing upwind with full sails in 50 kn winds in partly protected waters. He did well. You have to know what you are doing. However FYI lagoon reefing manual has no restriction on wind strengths above 130 true. It only says to slow down when hitting 15 kn. From this i conclude forces when close to DDW are easier to handle by the boat. You must have 100% reliable way to quickly depower where skills and preparation come in play.

One can watch that Lagoon 42 promo video doing 16 kn in 15 kn apparent at around 140 deg true - 23 kn true wind. Boat was without dinghy so I presume emptied at around 11T. This wind condition is where i will try next time when opportunity.

Sos · 10-05-2023, 01:15

Should you sell your Lagoon 450 and buy a FP 47 and expect to sail at 17 knots - No, you will be disappointed!

Kinkircating · 10-05-2023, 07:01

The FP47 is a very sweet catamaran and will do a fine job for the cruising mission her owners put her up to. My wife fell in love with the Saona 47 when it first came out and we toured it in Cannes, it was on our short list of boats being considered.

I absolutely loath when manufacturers or salespeople blatantly lie about a boat's capabilities. It is one of the things that turned me off to Lagoon and FP. Sell to your strengths, don't make your brand look foolish by making claims that any sailor with a shred of experience knows is absolutely B.S., they are preying on the naive and I take issue with that as it was once me. Hell, I'm still have a ton to learn but after sailing thousands of miles aboard charter cats and performance cats, it's easy to sniff out the misinformation out there.

The FP47 is a great boat, it won't come remotely close to achieving the claimed performance. That type of performance is reserved for properly equipped (and not overloaded) boats like the HH55, ORC57, Balance 526, Outremer 5X, Gunboats, etc...and even then it has to be ideal sea states and it will not be sustained for much more than a few hours by most crews unless you are racing and the wind cooperates.