Small Cat - Which One?

[Tropic Cat]

Point taken. I didn't intend to be harsh. I stand corrected.

[sandy daugherty]

I would dearly love to see some substantiation of Kohler's claims for his ANTI VORTEX PANELS see http://www.ikarus342000.com/Avorart.htm
Surely someone has made an independant objective examination of this concept either in a test tank or real life boat-to-boat sailing.
I would love for it to be true, but I'm too old to be sold by a designer's claims.

The Saagitta is a time tested design, with a name readily recognized (a significant resale consideration.)

[shnean66]

Originally Posted by rickm505

You can't stand in the salon of a KD860. Trust me ... you'll want to stand or at least move around on rainy days.

I'm not talking about Eclipse and Sagitta has about the same headroom as KD860. I'd rather accept to stand up only in the hulls and under a bimini than raise the saloon to standing headroom. Afterall she needs to go to windward.

Originally Posted by rickm505

The KD860 stikes me as a go-fast day sailor with minimal accomodations and little if any feed back from owners.

I think the overall level of accomodation is quite similar in Sagitta andKD860. Eclipse is superior, no question, but 2-3ft longer.
There is no feedback from KD owners, but that's because there are not many owners yet. Only one has been finished as far as I know, and that's a demo boat of a semi professional boatyard in Turkey.
There is a yahoo group where builders drop in from time to time. From what I read something like 8 boats are currently at various stages of the build.
I guess we need to wait another year for the first builds to finish.
Unfortunately I don't have that year without condensing my plans.

Originally Posted by rickm505

The Eclipse is a boat that was designed by a very well known and experienced boat designer. They have crossed oceans and are apparently more capable than the fella who designed her gave her credit for.

No questions on reputation or experience, although I am only aware of Wood's own Eclipse to have crossed oceans. Still that's one more than the KD
But also Kohler has a good reference. Look up Henk de Velde, his boats Zeeman and C1000 are Kohler's designs.

Originally Posted by rickm505

If it's between these two boats, IMHO, it's an easy choice.

Not for me

[shnean66]

Originally Posted by sandy daugherty

I would dearly love to see some substantiation of Kohler's claims for his ANTI VORTEX PANELS see http://www.ikarus342000.com/Avorart.htm
Surely someone has made an independant objective examination of this concept either in a test tank or real life boat-to-boat sailing.
I would love for it to be true, but I'm too old to be sold by a designer's claims.

I found some discussion on the boatdesign forum Anti Vortex Panels - Boat Design Forums


And I remember that one of the Duckworks designers (James or Jeff Gilbert or so) had a very small cat (something like 4 or 5 meters) designed with AV panels. I think one of them was build but I can't remember the name...

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by hannes99

I found some discussion on the boatdesign forum Anti Vortex Panels - Boat Design Forums...

I just read that thread. Not exactly a solid recomendation, is it? Interesting that Richard Woods tried and then disgarded them. If this is really a difficult decision for you, perhaps you might take a look at Catalac 8M or 9M's. There are always a few for sale in Europe

[shnean66]

Originally Posted by rickm505

I just read that thread. Not exactly a solid recomendation, is it? Interesting that Richard Woods tried and then disgarded them.

Well, basically Kohler claims AV panels work but has no way to proof.
Woods says they didn't on his Strider but does not provide much details to a) why he tried it at all if it's such a bad idea and b) if they were designed comparably to Kohler's AV panels.

But still you have a valid point that the AV panels are not nearly as proven as the LAR / dagger options for the Sagitta (as is the KD860 compared to the well known Sagitta).

[Tropic Cat]

I think all I can offer at this point is that when in doubt, go with proven technology, proven reputation, proven design.

Good Luck in your decision

[Robertcateran]

Have a look at the Jarcat 6 Maybe stretch it slightly as some have done and it comes out quite well . There is also a slightly bigger model.

[shnean66]

Originally Posted by Robertcateran

Have a look at the Jarcat 6 Maybe stretch it slightly as some have done and it comes out quite well . There is also a slightly bigger model.

The J6 is certainly the nicest trailer sailor for sheltered waters but completely unsuited for going anywhere offshore. Same for the cc24.
The cc29 is somewhat comparable. But there is barely any information available about the cc29, not even good photos, a detailed layout plan or a sailplan.
And this design shows a number of "old fashion" features I would not want on a cat: center cockpit with aft cabins, bridgedeck extending almost to the bows, high bridgedeck profile, center nacelle reducing bridgedeck clearance, ...

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by rickm505

I think all I can offer at this point is that when in doubt, go with proven technology, proven reputation, proven design.

as this thread has developed, that is what I have started to feel.

Looking back at an earlier post, one of the things mentioned was "easier build" for the KD860, but given that only 1 has been built (is in build?) perhaps not something to be certain of in practice, even if in theory - my gut feeling (i.e. I have no evidence!) is that a boat with a history of self building will either have most of the wrinkles ironed out (for a home builder), or at least be a known quantity.

The clincher for me would be likely re-sale value (or at least which was easier to sell) from designer and model reputation......and history of being sold!

But I guess deciding what to build is kinda like boat shopping in general. half the fun is in the umming and arring

Just an idea, what about trying to pick up a part built boat from someone who has lost interest / run out of money! Should be able to save time and some money......

[shnean66]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

as this thread has developed, that is what I have started to feel.

In my view the main features for the KD are the layout, playoad and draft.
Main features of Sagitta are proven design, resale value, easy access to mast.

So should I be conservative and go with proven or give the unknown AV panels a try? I have no clue...

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

Just an idea, what about trying to pick up a part built boat from someone who has lost interest / run out of money! Should be able to save time and some money......

If something suitebale would cross my way I'd go that route for sure, even accepting lot's of compromises if the price is OK.
But so far I only found an unsuitable Wharram Tiki30 nearby that has been sitting in a shed for many (!) years.

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by hannes99

If something suitebale would cross my way I'd go that route for sure, even accepting lot's of compromises if the price is OK.
But so far I only found an unsuitable Wharram Tiki30 nearby that has been sitting in a shed for many (!) years.

I did a fast Yachworld search for your part of the world and it turned up 34 small catamarans for sale. With this type of selection available it doesn't seem feasible spending 4000 hours and two or three years of your life to build a boat. Link is below, it says Balarus but essentailly it's northern Europe.


(Sail) Multi-hull Boats For Sale Belarus

[Robertcateran]

Originally Posted by hannes99

The J6 is certainly the nicest trailer sailor for sheltered waters but completely unsuited for going anywhere offshore. Same for the cc24.
The cc29 is somewhat comparable. But there is barely any information available about the cc29, not even good photos, a detailed layout plan or a sailplan.
And this design shows a number of "old fashion" features I would not want on a cat: center cockpit with aft cabins, bridgedeck extending almost to the bows, high bridgedeck profile, center nacelle reducing bridgedeck clearance, ...

I agree about the bow shape, but I rather like the centre cockpit as a feature that reduces the chance of being pooped. I also think the centre Nacelle is an nice way of getting decent seating room and reducing the chance of slapping. I am fascinated how the accommodation is fitted into such a small area. People who own them love them, as shown in the Jarcat yahoo group. I seriously considered a Jarcat 29 with extended bows with vertical or even reverse stem. I also drew up a Harryproa design using the accommodation of the Jarcat CC29, including the Nacelle.

[shnean66]

Originally Posted by rickm505

I did a fast Yachworld search for your part of the world and it turned up 34 small catamarans for sale. With this type of selection available it doesn't seem feasible spending 4000 hours and two or three years of your life to build a boat.

Of course a build will eat up considerable amount of time, no question. But I hope to get by with 2000-2500 hrs, for some of which I want to hire people (the simple dirt work like filling and fairing and some of the finishing work like final painting).

Of course I have also constantly been looking for boats over the last year or so. I have visited a number of promising boats after having a detailed chat with the broker / seller. Wasted time and money driving thousands of kilometers.

The current listing is not really 34 cats of that size. Remove the tris, remove the racers, remove everything that is older than 20 yrs. Now you are left with one Catalac 9m and a really nice looking 2006 30ft cat for 124500 EUR / 183750 USD.
Maybe I will have a look at the Catalac as I will be in that area next week anyway.

[swagman]

If you are looking for what might be a low cost small cat project we went canal cruising a week back in France, and passed a UK registered 8/9 M Catalac tied up alongside the Canal du Niverais.
Dirty is an understatement as it looked like it had been untouched for maybe 5 years.
I suspect one could trace its owner and make them an offer they might find hard to refuse.
It's alongside the canal in the village of Marseilles-les-Aubigny - a long days drive from you in the Netherlands.
Cheers
JOHN