Slip Size Issues

[zboss]

So semi-theoretical discussion/issue/question:

Two catamarans are assigned a t-head. One behind the other... stern to stern.

The t-head total length is about 80 feet.

Boat A is 44 feet long and is in his slip first. The boat does not fit the slip.
Boat B is 42 feet long. The boat fits the slip.


The dividing line between the boats is clearly indicated and the last cleat on each dock is about 5-6 feet from the end.

Boat A leaves about 1 foot of space between divide and occupies one of the other slips cleats because he won't/can't move forward enough to tie off to his cleat.

Boat B has similar problems and also sticks out the end of the dock but by less. He can't cross over the the Boat A cleat because its blocked by Boat A's transom.

Any boat that is in the Boat B slip gets its bow pushed out by heavy winds causing the opposite stern to be pushed towards the stern of BoatA. Boat A has apparently experienced this with many boats before the new arrival so he is aware of the issue.

Boat B takes every precaution to prevent the boat from swinging out including tying to the end piling.

Both owners have requested that the marina install additional cleats to assist but this hasn't happened yet.

At the request of Boat A, Boat B moves forward and opens the gap between the two boats by a reasonable amount but not so much that he can't control the bow of the boat in those heavy winds - essentially - the more he moves out the more pronounced the twist of the boat.

Boat A is concerned that the two vessels could make contact at the stern in a storm. Boat B feels that since he normally fits in that slip properly he doesn't twist out if he were allowed to tie his boat up properly - which is true.

So - if the two boats make contact - who is at fault?

Boat A for realizing that he is in a slip that is too small for his boat? Should he be forced to pay for two slips?

Boat A for realizing the issue but won't find another slip?

Boat B for occupying the slip at all after being made aware of the issue?

The marina for putting two boats in on a t-head where one won't fit?

or...

Something other?

[Montanan]

Round peg, square hole.

Both boats are too long for the T Slip positions if their bows extend beyond the end of the pier.

Both should relocate to longer slips which slips should be properly equipped with adequate tie to points suitable to control the boats. The equipment should be installed before any boat occupies the space. Just "making do" is inappropriate marinership, be that a skipper or the marina operator.

[Chotu]

Make a point to the marina by securely tying off the boats... to cleats on a different dock.

[Thumbs Up]

If there is contact it is your fault because you clearly understood that there was an issue. Surely there is a way to tie the two boats in the available space without much risk of collision. You might have to bring out your spare lines and some extra fenders. If it is a storm you might want to deploy your anchor as well. Instead of worrying about blame, worry about how to tie the two boats up more securely. If it boils down to a blame issue, you will have been the one that made the preventative action.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

If there is contact it is your fault because you clearly understood that there was an issue. Surely there is a way to tie the two boats in the available space without much risk of collision. You might have to bring out your spare lines and some extra fenders. If it is a storm you might want to deploy your anchor as well. Instead of worrying about blame, worry about how to tie the two boats up more securely. If it boils down to a blame issue, you will have been the one that made the preventative action.

You can't deploy an anchor at a floating dock.

I don't understand why it would be Boat B's fault for moving completely within their own slip and Boat A is the one using every last inch of their slip plus several inches of the other boats slip, not leaving any space to account for the movement of his own vessel.

Its completely theoretical because Boat A's issue was with a much much larger catamaran than the one in the slip currently. He's just hurt because he is too big to fit into his own slip without spilling out the end. In other words, he isn't willing to find a slip that is more suitable for his size vessel. The marina should make him pay for both slips if he won't move or not let him stay in that slip at all, which I think is normal marina requirements.

[S/V Adeline]

Every marina I have been in would usually allow the boat owners to sort out similar issues, however if two owners could not agree the marina would default to common sense per the layout. Cleats designated for slip B could only be used by slip B, slip A mooring lines(or the vessel itself) cannot block access to slip B cleats.
I am surprised the marina did not settle the cleat issue, if only to inform both parties which cleats they are entitled to.

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by zboss

You can't deploy an anchor at a floating dock.

I don't understand why it would be Boat B's fault for moving completely within their own slip and Boat A is the one using every last inch of their slip plus several inches of the other boats slip, not leaving any space to account for the movement of his own vessel.

Its completely theoretical because Boat A's issue was with a much much larger catamaran than the one in the slip currently. He's just hurt because he is too big to fit into his own slip without spilling out the end. In other words, he isn't willing to find a slip that is more suitable for his size vessel. The marina should make him pay for both slips if he won't move or not let him stay in that slip at all, which I think is normal marina requirements.

Because boat A was there first and boat B knew the danger but tied up too close anyway. You are right that the marina should deal with the issue, but if there is a collision, the marina won't take the blame. It is your responsibility to do whatever you can to avoid the collision. You can't allow a collision just to prove a point. If it was me, I probably would have been pissed off and retied boat A myself but that is not the answer.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Round peg, square hole.

Both boats are too long for the T Slip positions if their bows extend beyond the end of the pier.

Both should relocate to longer slips which slips should be properly equipped with adequate tie to points suitable to control the boats. The equipment should be installed before any boat occupies the space. Just "making do" is inappropriate marinership, be that a skipper or the marina operator.

Many marinas, including the one I managed, allow a specified amount of overhang, beyond the end of the dock. In our case, it was 3 feet. Boat B would have fit, boat A would not have, and we would not have left it up to the boats to work it out, unless they happened to be owned by the same entity.

[JPA Cate]

What's key here is getting the two boat owners to work together. And it might work better if they were bows together.

Here in Australia, I have seen places where the person who is in the slip has added something (in one case a dyneema line that went through the drain hole and came back on itself, for an additional cleat; and another one who went to the used boat bits place and found a huge horn style cleat, that he through-bolted through the dock's timber, placed where it could be used to keep him straight). They leave the bits behind when they leave, for the convenience of others. These guys worked on the easier to get forgiveness than permission principle.

Sometimes people agree to switch cleats, or to share them. An end to end spliced bit of dyneema with chafing gear is a fine thing to attach to a dock cleat, and then secure to and lead the end back to your boat. You can also experiment with spring lines --polyester, so small stretch; finally, you might add backing plates and extra cleats to your vessel itself. Seems as if you need to keep that stern right close to the dock.

Have a fenders discussion. It is entirely possible that working together, the two of you can cushion the boats adequately for most conditions. If you are in a hurricane zone, probably not, and will either have to relocate or get something really strong worked out with lines. Remember the force of the wind goes up as the square of its velocity.

Ann

[Tupaia]

I would have thought that stern lines between the boats would have worked. It is common practice for cats to have 4 stern lines 2 straight and 2 crossed over. With a little cooperation between the owners the 4 lines would be Boat A port to Boat B stb, Boat A stb to Boat B port, Boat A port to Boat B port and Boat A stb to Boat B stb. A couple of springs from the stern cleats on each boat going forward will keep the stern lines tight and the 2 boats effectively become one.

[ozsailer]

Gday Boss, It appears things are a little bit different here in Oz then the US. On most marina's I have used on the East Coast of Oz they allow a 10% overhang. In your case I would happily overhang the end of the T end and adjust the spring lines to suit. No big deal have done it many a time with a metre or so between sterns or bows. Always happy to approach a boat coming into a T head I am occupying and assit to tie them up. A foot between boats in any circumstances is way to close and does not allow for stretch in lines. If you have a close look at marinas and monos in a slip that allows for two monos, you only have to watch storm videos to see the damage badly fitted docking lines and not enough buffers can do. Same thing, who's fault.

Greg H
Lagoon 440
Oz

[Hiva Oa]

If you are paying by the foot of your vessel then boat A has the right to use 44' of dock. Boat B is probably paying for 42' of dock but only allocated 36'. You really should not have accepted this arrangement.

[zboss]

Originally Posted by Hiva Oa

If you are paying by the foot of your vessel then boat A has the right to use 44' of dock. Boat B is probably paying for 42' of dock but only allocated 36'. You really should not have accepted this arrangement.

That's not how it works in Florida. You pretty much take what you can get because there is a huge lack of marina space for cats and the marinas know this. You are generally lucky if they even let you in a marina at all. You are even luckier if they don't express annoyance at you for asking

This was all hypothetical because there was never a chance of Boat A and Boat B meeting because Boat B has a much wider beam and outside of boat B fits within the inside of the Boat A outside hull, so twisting actually moves them apart. Boat A really had a problem with a much larger boat C, which left before Boat B arrived.

In my hypothetical scenario it was not clear before docking that Boat A had an issue with this.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by zboss

So semi-theoretical discussion/issue/question:

Two catamarans are assigned a t-head. One behind the other... stern to stern.

The t-head total length is about 80 feet.

Boat A is 44 feet long and is in his slip first. The boat does not fit the slip.
Boat B is 42 feet long. The boat fits the slip.


The dividing line between the boats is clearly indicated and the last cleat on each dock is about 5-6 feet from the end.

Boat A leaves about 1 foot of space between divide and occupies one of the other slips cleats because he won't/can't move forward enough to tie off to his cleat.

Boat B has similar problems and also sticks out the end of the dock but by less. He can't cross over the the Boat A cleat because its blocked by Boat A's transom.

Any boat that is in the Boat B slip gets its bow pushed out by heavy winds causing the opposite stern to be pushed towards the stern of BoatA. Boat A has apparently experienced this with many boats before the new arrival so he is aware of the issue.

Boat B takes every precaution to prevent the boat from swinging out including tying to the end piling.

Both owners have requested that the marina install additional cleats to assist but this hasn't happened yet.

At the request of Boat A, Boat B moves forward and opens the gap between the two boats by a reasonable amount but not so much that he can't control the bow of the boat in those heavy winds - essentially - the more he moves out the more pronounced the twist of the boat.

Boat A is concerned that the two vessels could make contact at the stern in a storm. Boat B feels that since he normally fits in that slip properly he doesn't twist out if he were allowed to tie his boat up properly - which is true.

So - if the two boats make contact - who is at fault?

Boat A for realizing that he is in a slip that is too small for his boat? Should he be forced to pay for two slips?

Boat A for realizing the issue but won't find another slip?

Boat B for occupying the slip at all after being made aware of the issue?

The marina for putting two boats in on a t-head where one won't fit?

or...

Something other?

Which boat has the licensed captain? If both then who has seniority?
Case 1 the boat with licensed captain is at fault . Case 2 the senior captain is at fault.

At least that's how the insurance will say it .

[GRIT]

This doesn't answer the original question, but I thought I'd add it to the thread, due to my interpretation of what zboss said. And perhaps to help someone who's run into a similar problem.

Though it's true you can't "deploy" the anchor from the dock, you can deploy it before tying to the dock.

I have on several occasions placed anchors within the confines of a marina, to keep the bow under control. I drop the anchor where I want it, then let out chain to allow the boat to approach the dock. Sometimes it's to control the bow in a tight approach, to stop it from being blown into a neighbouring boat. Sometimes it's to hold the bow, when the dock is too short for the boat. And it's occasionally used to help get the boat off the dock, if I'm expecting foul winds. It's not quite as nice as a bow thruster, but works similarly.

Either way, it's a useful tool to keep control of the bow, especially in a crosswind. I did this on my old monohull, and on the new Cat. It works a treat. I learned it from a container ship captain, who has to use it quite often, to get into tight spots, usually in third world countries, where tugboats are a luxury.

The caveat is, that you either need crew to operate the windlass, or you need an electric windlass with controls near the helm. We have the latter, and would highly recommend anyone with an electric winch do the same.

Our anchor is self launching, but it need not be, if you hang it off the bow just before entering the marina.

In the case of the following photo, it was to keep the bow from blowing into the bow of my neighbour, as I was entering the dock short handed, and with a cross wind. The photo was taken several days later, when it had calmed down.

The dock was about 6 feet shorter than GRIT.

Cheers.
Paul.