Semmes Yachting, broker in Annapolis. BEWARE!

[more]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

Even the anchor had been replaced with another one that looked like it had come from the skip bin.

o this happens to me before 10 years . when i come in marina after pay boat no anchor and chain nothing inside,totally nothing fender, any rope, gas bottle, not 1 knife absolute clean boat. and i leave Zadar with only 2 rope couple meter,no anchor chain nothing

[BlueH2Obound]

[QUOTE=LuckyDog63;3589181]
The IYBA document that was used for this transaction states "Vessel also includes all gear, machinery, equipment, furniture, fuel, consumables, and all registered or unregistered tenders, toys, articles and appurtenances on board the vessel and/or included in the Vessel's listing specification as of the date of this Agreement, except for the items listed on the Exclusions List provided by the Seller or Listing Broker".
/QUOTE]


The boat in question here is advertised for $1,190,000.00. Brokers commission at 10% on a full price offer would have been $119,000.00. ONE HUNDRED AND NINETEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS . . . Ethics aside, the Broker really screwed the pooch not just ponying up and paying for a comparable dingy/engine and life raft on that one.

Plus if the information shown above was actually in the P&S agreement, and the dingy/engine and life raft were shown in the advertised photos, and an exclusion list was not provided to the buyer . . . . . then personally, I feel the seller and broker were in the wrong. Seller may not have realized it, but brokers are paid commissions because they are SUPPOSED to be knowledgeable and competent. IF the facts as presented are accurate, I feel that the broker referenced is neither knowledgeable, nor competent. JMHO

[japawil]

Originally Posted by LuckyDog63

They were on board and no exclusion list was provided.

If they were on board (physically, not assumed from viewing pictures) at the time the contract was signed, then according to the wording they should be included in the sale.
The halyard, chain, lines, etc. are included based on the same wording.
If this was arranged long distance relying on photos without in-person inspection prior to signing a contract, especially if the dinghy and life raft were not detailed in the listing, it’s easily possible that the seller might retain those items for use on another boat.
Often times photos of boats for sale are not current, but rather pics submitted from the owner which could be months or even years old.
It’s always prudent to specifically ask about inclusion of big ticket items, especially if not listed, to verify that they are part of the “package” so to speak.

[LuckyDog63]

Thanks everyone for your insights. I genuinely appreciate the feedback, even the ones that don’t agree with my perspective. This community is a fantastic resource and I’ve learned a lot today.

I’m watching news about Ukraine as I write this and feel like a complete schmuck for having even a moment when I thought my boat deal was actually a problem. Good reality check.

Now back to shopping, equipped with a bit more experience! Thanks

[rhubstuff]

The OP does not mention using a buyer's broker, so apparently he/she did not have one. A good buyer's broker would have pointed out the fact that the equipment list did not mention the dinghy or the life raft. The selling broker had no obligation, legal or moral, to point this out, and was well within their right not to do so. It's not the selling broker's job to point out shortcomings. Seems to me that if one is going to drop a million bucks on a boat (or a house, a car, an airplane, a stud horse, etc.) one might want to have a professional in that business looking out for your interests. Or you can go it alone and forget about "buyer beware." There is also this statement in every yacht listing: "The Company offers the details of this vessel in good faith but cannot guarantee or warrant the accuracy of this information." Given that Semmes currently has a Lagoon 50 listed at $1,190,000 (no dinghy listed...), one wonders why the OP was so upset about a few boat bucks for a new dinghy.

[Nani Kai]

Originally Posted by LuckyDog63

There have been a lot of fun comments about wives, dogs, buyer beware, etc. While entertaining they do not address the issue here. I appreciate the humor but a contract was signed and the contract stated this:

The IYBA document that was used for this transaction states "Vessel also includes all gear, machinery, equipment, furniture, fuel, consumables, and all registered or unregistered tenders, toys, articles and appurtenances on board the vessel and/or included in the Vessel's listing specification as of the date of this Agreement, except for the items listed on the Exclusions List provided by the Seller or Listing Broker".

If that doesn't make it clear I don't think anything will.

Seems pretty clear you were a careful buyer with a specific contract. If the seller signed the document you quote above, and the dinghy and life raft were not specifically excluded, then IMO he owes you the dinghy and life raft, a replacement or appropriate compensation. The broker, as party to the contract, has at very least an ethical obligation to insure the terms of the contract are met.

If I found my self in the same situation and wanted to resolve the issue speedily, I might suggest that each party take 1/3 responsibility in providing the equipment specified in the contract but not delivered. No big hit for any one party, no legal action against anyone, no winners/no losers, everyone goes home.

It's understandable that you would be upset and looking to vent your frustration over the situation. I'm assuming that you made your concerns known to the broker in a like manner. If the broker chose afterwards to ignore the terms of the contract they facilitated then they have to accept the consequences of that decision, which might include public disclosure.

I appreciate your post.

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by LuckyDog63

If we're going to get technical, as a matter of contract law, that is not correct. But setting the minutae aside an ethical seller doesn't hide exclusions.

Actually, that is EXACTLY how it works. I assume you've never bought property either. You certainly have not bought a boat. The contract is a precise list of terms for the sale. If there are inclusions, they need to be listed in the P&S.

In fact, it is the BUYER that submitted the Purchase and Sale Agreement (P&S). The P&S is your contract. You made the offer for goods in exchange for cash and signed it. The Seller simply signs YOUR offer. If you did not include additional items not specifically affixed to the boat (cleats are affixed, dinghies, lines, fenders, throwables, furniture, etc. are not) then that is your fault. Had you done, so, you would have received a counter-offer with these items removed.

It's a shame your lack of understanding is libelling this business.

[dcondit]

Based on what the OP provides, the items (tender explicitly) are covered in the written contract. Since this is a seller's market, and brokers may feel empowered, it might be worth a quick visit to an attorney. If it were me, I might continue with the sale but refuse to sign any clarification (a.k.a. contract modification) about the items. I would just keep my mouth shut and say we have a contract. At possession I would consider issuing a demand letter for the missing items that were in the contract. At that point you've not lost the purchase in a tough market and may have legal recourse. I would expect that a yacht broker would have professional liability insurance for contract errors.

[Zzmeyer]

When I first read the OP, I was not terribly sympathetic. Turns out, as I understand it, if he used the IBYA Purchase contract it is the responsibility of the seller to list excluded items, not the Buyer's responsibility to list included items. When I sold my cat (similar to the Leopard 50) the broker told me to take everything off the boat that I didn't want included or provide a detailed list of everything. The IBYA contract is pretty clear that if something was on the boat during the sea trial and not listed as an excluded item (like a wife and dog if you want them), then they go with the boat. Of course, the Seller can argue that the dinghy and liferaft were not on the boat during the sea trial. The other interesting aspect of the IBYA contract, unlike many others, is that the prevailing party is entitled to legal fees. In general, except for fraud which is very hard to prove in court, each party pays their own fees. As the Leopard 50 is a toy, I, for one, would not go this route, but like the OP move on. Good luck in your search.

[mikethomas]

So far I think this post is the most financially valuable one I have read. Right or wrong, I appreciate the OP's time and effort.

The first broker I ever worked with told me the tender was not included after I signed the contract even though the listing mentioned it clearly. When I brought it up, he immediately changed the online listing and told me I was mistaken. Luckily I had first taken a screenshot of the listing. We ended up backing out of that one. A bit too sketchy for us.

[RedneckRedcoat]

Originally Posted by TheOffice

Sorry, but the equipment list, not the photos, governs.

Agree. Of the three boats we have bought If it was not listed it’s not for sale.

But also I have found from our experience even if the dinghy is listed it might not necessarily be any good. Ours fell apart 1 month after we moved onto the boat.

You will probably be better off getting a new dinghy anyways !

I wouldn’t get mad about it though. Tell the broker if it’s not included your revising your offer as your offer was based on it being included.

[merrydolphin]

A Lagoon 50? They may have done you a favor. Watch the episode of Zingara where he delivers a lagoon 50. Personally, I would be very careful buying a Lagoon for serious passage making with there bulkhead issues. That’s a ton of money for a boat that could give you very major repair expenses down the road.
( my opinion).

[lestersails]

I know it is cynical, but I always assume that everything a salesperson says to me that is not written down in black and white is a lie. You can pretty quickly tell if they are a liar or just lazy or incompetent (most often the latter) when you go back to them and politely ask for everything that matters to you to be adding to the contract in writing. The liars, cheats, and sleaze bags get all huffy and self-righteous. The lazy and incompetent comply.

[lo2jones]

One of the largest brokerages in San Francisco Bay engages in these tactics. Their other favorite trick: for unsuspecting sellers, they offer a pie-in-the-sky asking price, well over the boats value, and contractually require the boat stay at the brokerage. Said broker moves the overpriced boat around to keep empty slips full and paid for by seller of overpriced boat.
In spite of this, it is still a good idea to sell a boat through a reputable broker. It always pays to be cautious. Depending on your own risk tolerance, when boats get above $50,000-$100,000, find a good broker or be prepared to spend $20k for a lawyer.

[redneckrob]

Keep in mind that at least in Maryland you need a contract or bill of sale that specifically names the dinghy in order to register it, and it's required to be registered. From the state registration rules perspective you're buying two independent boats, the fact that one can sit on the other isn't relevant. So at the very least one should be sure the dinghy is specifically named with hull identification number and description in any contract or bill of sale. The vague wording the OP listed wouldn't cut it (ask me how I know!).