Sea Anchor versus drogue for multihull

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Paul,

Maybe you could explain to me how you forereach a cat in large breaking seas with helm unattended?


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If you looked at the list that I quoted, none of the items had anything to do with large breaking seas.

[PapaLulu]

I think the point mentioned was that fore-reaching and heaving-to are both difficult in a cat. The arguments for a catamaran slowing strategies still seem leaning toward having both a drogue and a sea anchor, subject to pre-deployment and competent practice in deploying and redeploying. No?

[Neptune's Gear]

I’ve not used a parachute on a cat, but I have on a mono. I would absolutely use one on a cat. I retrieve it by motoring forward, picking up the rode as I go, with as little load on the rode as possible. As soon as the shroud connections are reachable, use a boat hook to pick up a shroud, and the shroud to collapse and collect the chute. If you invert the chute so the shroud connection point is under you, it will be impossible to retrieve, as you are trying to lift the chute full of water. Pay out some rode, let it reset, try again. You can not retrieve a chute with the rode, because of this issue. In my experience.
Of interest may be that the NZ west coast South Island fishermen use these chutes commonly, and it was both their experiences, and that of the Pardys that initially convinced me to have this system as my last resort. See the W A Coppins website for more info. I use one, and carry it pre set up on any offshore passage I do on my own boat, and sometimes on deliveries, depending on the boat and gear I’m delivering.
Although I’ve only deployed the chute a couple of times, I have experienced nothing to convince me that this is not the best solution for a small sailing vessel with limited crew, in really severe conditions.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by PapaLulu

I think the point mentioned was that fore-reaching and heaving-to are both difficult in a cat. The arguments for a catamaran slowing strategies still seem leaning toward having both a drogue and a sea anchor, subject to pre-deployment and competent practice in deploying and redeploying. No?

These discussions often quickly go to discussing extreme weather and life threatening storms. Certainly more entertaining to discuss. The poster that I responded to had a long list of situations as their reason for needing a sea anchor. The list was mainly uncomfortable situations, not threatening storms. If you have not mastered the far more common uncomfortable situations, it is unlikely that you will master the rare extreme situations. If for no other reason we get to practice what we know in u comfortable situations while you may go many years and many 10,000's of miles and never experience extreme conditions. Fore reaching, heaving to, etc work well for uncomfortable situations, especially the ones in the quoted list.
I'm not a cat sailor, but I don't see any reason why most offshore cats can't fore reach to get a break from uncomfortable conditions. I can't imagine it being practical to expend all the effort to deploy and retrieve a large sea anchor for anything but really bad conditions on a typical mom and pop crewed boat.

[BigBeakie]

Paul,

Thanks for your opinion, but try and get some offshore experience on a cat before becoming set in your ideas. Fore-reaching in a cat is very much an active strategy, requiring an attentive helmsperson. Having hand steered a 14 meter Simpson for 2 full days and nights fore-reaching in "uncomfortable" conditions, I can testify how fatigue sets in very quickly, and also to how breaking seas can be dangerous and damaging to the boat. The skipper did not have a parachute, more's the pity!

The posters points 2 & 3 re resting, illness, injury and/or damage did say Anytime ....

To make the point again, if there is any sea state that merits taking a break for short handed crew, a parachute is a viable strategy as long as the pre-requisites already mentioned ( properly rigged for both deployment & retrieval plus having practised in moderate conditions) have been fulfilled.


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[Paul L]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Paul,

Thanks for your opinion, but try and get some offshore experience on a cat before becoming set in your ideas. Fore-reaching in a cat is very much an active strategy, requiring an attentive helmsperson. Having hand steered a 14 meter Simpson for 2 full days and nights fore-reaching in "uncomfortable" conditions, I can testify how fatigue sets in very quickly, and also to how breaking seas can be dangerous and damaging to the boat. The skipper did not have a parachute, more's the pity!

The posters points 2 & 3 re resting, illness, injury and/or damage did say Anytime ....

To make the point again, if there is any sea state that merits taking a break for short handed crew, a parachute is a viable strategy as long as the pre-requisites already mentioned ( properly rigged for both deployment & retrieval plus having practised in moderate conditions) have been fulfilled.


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In the non-dangerous seas environment would setting the autopilot allow the cat to fore reach? Are you implying that Cats just can't fore reach at all? Is there nothing between wanting to rest and having to set a parachute?

Most of the stories I've heard or read concerning a parachute setting was that it was a lot of work. Perhaps the added work space on a cat makes it a little easier. I guess you can respond with they weren't setup or rigged properly, but on most boats setting/retrieving a parachute offshore is not a trivial task.

(I read threads like this to learn, not to be set in my ways. I've never used a parachute. I've set a drogue a few times, but not in anger. Fore reached many times)

[BigBeakie]

I'm just saying that there are conditions of fully matured seas where waves are breaking, and the seas may be confused with multiple wave trains. Happens not infrequently offshore on East coast of Oz with southerlies against the EAC. These are not survival conditions, nor even that dangerous, BUT, they do require constant attention and hand steering to dodge the breakers. Also, we had to luff up over the crests and then bear away on the back of the wave a bit to pick up some speed before luffing up for the next wave, so it would take a pretty smart AP to duplicate that.😉

Cats get their bows pushed off relatively easily compared to a mono, and getting broadside to breaking seas is not a good place to be.

By all means fore-reach when conditions are moderate without breakers, when you have enough crew to see you through long periods of hand steering, or if it just works well with your boat.


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[Octopus]

Like I said, in practice we haven't used our parachute anchor - perhaps because a large cruising catamaran looks after its crew so well that we have never felt the need for respite.

In strong gales we've fore-reached. Most notably in a F10 in the Irish Sea, where we had sufficient sea room, our slow progress was taking us away from the weather system, the autopilot could handle the conditions and I was on watch (for 36 hours without a break) in the warm, dry and comfortable saloon with 360 degree visibility and AIS. Had I been in a different boat it is quite likely I would have deployed the parachute anchor and gone to bed.

From my understanding, the beauty of a parachute anchor is that you pretty much stay where you are, with your head to wind meeting each sea head on. I'm looking forward to trying it one day.

Chris

[Octopus]

Originally Posted by DavefromNZ

I would never put out a para anchor on our Lagoon 450 as bow fitting would rip right out. We have a Jordan series drogue with reinforcement points in the stern and we have practiced deployment.

Chris I would be reluctant to put out a para anchor for most of the reasons above as the hassle and danger may not justify it. We have made way to windward in 64kt (F12).

Hi Dave

I agree that in survival conditions, the bow fittings of a Lagoon 450 may 'pull right out' if they are your only attachment, which is why we made up a long harness out of 32mm multiplait nylon, long enough to be run through the stern cleats acting as a fairlead and back to the cockpit winches. The plan being to lightly lash the nylon rode to midships and forward cleat, so friction on the topside/toerail/fairlead together with the stretch of the nylon rode take most of the shock loads.

Although we have not actually deployed our parachute anchor, in ten years and 15,000nm, we have practised running the lines and tying them on the outside of the rail with light line ready for instant deployment. I'm confident our planned method would work.

From my experience in a F10, I'm pretty confident of our ability to continue making headway in even stronger winds, like those you have experienced, but there are always going to be situations in which you can't make headway. For example, complete electrics failure wipes out your engines, rope around your prop, torn sails, halliard lost up the mast etc. etc.. In these situations a series drogue will not help you if you happen to be on a lee shore, whereas a parachute anchor will, as it will be the current more than the wind that determines where you end up and a current is much less likely to take you onto the shore.

I like the idea of a series drogue and perhaps for light weight catamarans they are an essential piece of safety equipment, but I just can't imagine many situations in which I'd have to use them on a heavyweight Lagoon 420.

If a series drogue could be used for another purpose then I'd be more interested. I have heard of people using car tyres as fenders and also as an emergency series drogues, which might work, but they would make for very heavy mooring work.

Chris

[DavefromNZ]

Hi Chris, I have been involved with risk management for 30 years as an airline pilot. One cannot and should not plan for treble emergencies. Namely serious un-forecasted weather, lee shore (planning and unlikely) and another serious failure that makes your yacht uncontrollably. Yes can happen but where do we stop adding problems.

Like all of us discussing this I considered the risks and still believe that the lowest risk and lowest stress on a Cat is to run downwind (forget about the Lee shore, in my case the Pacific is rather big [emoji1]] https://youtu.be/hQ-svmgOxqw cheers,Dave

[Don C L]

I see there is a new 18' Para Tech sea anchor for sale on Los Angeles craigslist. Located in Van Nuys.

[Warren Drifter]

The usual recommended diameter of a sea anchor is approximately equal to the multi-hull's beam which is pretty large for some cats and especially trimarans. I think a smaller one that is easier to handle is worth having.

I use a 15' diameter Para-tech for my 37' cat and admit it takes much practice to recover alone but well worth the lessons. Before I make a long open ocean passage. I rig a bridle from the bows leading back to the cockpit and use a plastic garbage can to stuff all the braided line into and then connect all the items together. To deploy, I just toss everything over the side from the cockpit.

I once had the tie-bar between the rudder tillers break just as the sun was setting and the wind/seas were picking up. I threw that bag over the side, paid out line and in a few minutes, I was pointed into the sea riding comfortably. I secured the flopping wayward rudders, worked out a plan while having a hot meal, done some improvising, had a good nap, finished the make-shift repairs in the morning, recovered the sea anchor and continued on my way.

Most cats aren't good at heaving to, especially mine. Monohulls can but some without a rudder would have difficulty as well. Floundering around in rough seas without any direction home can be very uncomfortable. One can also use a sea anchor to rest and stall for time while waiting on daylight to enter some unfamiliar harbor. I have seen fishing boats using them to stall the boat while handling nets, etc. If you get one, I highly recommend practicing recovery as much as possible in an isolated area of calm water until you work out the easiest method that suits you and your boat the best.

[Thalas]

Would attaching a fabric wrapped float soaked in storm oil (most likely vegetable oil on board for cooking) to a drogue or sea anchor be of any use to calm oncoming waves? I read about 19th century sailors using this, but never in a modern context.

[Steve Bean]

Oil has been used many times. Google "The use of oil to lessen the dangerous effect of heavy seas."

[Thalas]

Originally Posted by Steve Bean

Oil has been used many times. Google "The use of oil to lessen the dangerous effect of heavy seas."

Googling your phrase gives the same results I got when I googled “storm oil sailing” which only lists 19th century practices. My question was explicitly about how I never see this strategy mentioned in the modern era. If it is so effective, why doesn’t the ASA mention it as a viable measure in high risk situations at sea? Is it an effective option to make the sea measurably safer if the captain genuinely feared for the security of the boat in a storm?