Sailing a proa

[catty]

Gee I-tai before you get your knickers in a twist I suggest you do some reading on proa types. The pacific proa style such as Russ Browns Jezerro actually has a strong connection with historical past designs, with many bluewater miles under its keels. Robs lopsided catamaran contraption has very little connection with past proa designs as in robs words it is a completely new design( of the lots of weight and windage to windward type ) with pretty much zerro miles under the keel after 10 odd years of development.

Maybe its a really good design, nobody knows as he refuses to test it against known benchmarks. It appears he would prefer a trusting newbie like yourself to see if its safe in adverse weather condition. We only found out recently that a complete set of plans has been unavailable to date, courtesy of mark stephens (ex harryproa). Possibly explains why so many rudders systems are being rebuilt by owners.

[Italian Taitano]

Ah yes. the old double canoe. A big part of the twin-hull family and still in the running as far as what kind of boat I want. Currently, I am most serious about the Manta; there's one for sale near here.

One thing to be sure, while you were included in my comment, you were not the target and I did not mean to offend anyone. I was just saying that the venomous nature of at least two people here was getting on my nerves to the point of convincing me that my sense of intimidation at the design was in error. It is very much a tested design and has millenia of R&D behind it; as do the cat and the double canoe, which is often mistaken for a cat. I find it very nearly, but not quite, offensive when someone tries to pass off the whole of something old as a revolution and I have found a lot of that coming from the multihull camp. But what i find genuinely, if mildly, offensive is when someone tries it in a dismissive way as at least one here has. That's almost calling my people stupid for using an inferior design to whatever the person has in mind - which happens to be the cat.

The Cat and the Double Canoe both work best when you don't plan on seeing land in months. But, in the Pacific, this is unnecessary especially with the speed of the proa and how close the islands usually are to eachother. A trans-Atlantic or trans-Indian crossing would push the concept of a live-aboard proa to the limits - especially with a family aboard. If I build one, it will be over a hundred feet with the main hull about twenty feet abeam. The secondary would be sixty to seventy and be about ten feet abeam.

[Italian Taitano]

Originally Posted by catty

Gee I-tai before you get your knickers in a twist I suggest you do some reading on proa types. The pacific proa style such as Russ Browns Jezerro actually has a strong connection with historical past designs, with many bluewater miles under its keels. Robs lopsided catamaran contraption has very little connection with past proa designs as in robs words it is a completely new design( of the lots of weight and windage to windward type ) with pretty much zero miles under the keel after 10 odd years of development.

Maybe its a really good design, nobody knows as he refuses to test it against known benchmarks. It appears he would prefer a trusting newbie like yourself to see if its safe in adverse weather condition. We only found out recently that a complete set of plans has been unavailable to date, courtesy of mark stephens (ex harryproa). Possibly explains why so many rudders systems are being rebuilt by owners.

Sorry. I misread you. You sounded almost dead set against proas altogether in a lot of your posts. I am indeed willing to try out his design, but my Polynesian instincts are uneasy about where he put the living quarters. Referring to it as a lopsided cat is where you confused me, as it sounds very derogatory, and I am sorry.

[GordMay]

Time out, to cool off.
Last chance - NO personal comments nor aspersions.

[Lodesman]

Gord - see what happens when the mods shut down Firearms discussions? There's brawling in the streets, because there's nowhere else for people to vent their rage.


Kevin

[Italian Taitano]

Good lord. Looking at my posts last night is embarrassing. . . I was tired and cranky and I don't know why. Oh well. I remember why I came by this particular thread.

And now for the question:

What kinds of designs are available to me? I am having a difficult time finding a design that suits my needs and is available for me to study and/or purchase. For the most part, the only one who keeps popping up is Harry Proas and one other whose name I forget. So far, I've only narrowed it down to two major designers for the proas but half a dozen Catamarans. Do you have any recommendations for cruising style proas besides Harry?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by rob denney

44' cruising cat.

Nice video, you got any more? Bob and I go way back, he is the cat designer closest to my philosophy and a nice guy as well.

regards,

Rob

There is an even shorter one, taken earlier when the boat was going faster - around 16 knots, in around 20-22 knots breeze. It's very short though (17 seconds) because, as I said it was a still camera, and I didn't know how much memory it would use filming video.

Anyway, here it is:

YouTube - Oram Mango 38, 16 knots in 20 - 22

[rob denney]

G'day,

Been busy, so have replied to a bunch of posts in this one.

Gideon,
The boat in the video is equipped for long term coastal cruising. If you want more stuff on board,I would make the boat longer. Little more cost, much better performance. The Dutch one takes 8 sight impaired people for day sails around the Ijselmeer and for family weekending and an extended cruise in the summer holidays. No point in putting more stuff on than you need. If you want all the bells and whistles, get a longer proa so you keep the performance.

Catty,
As usual, your quotes are way out of context. Not that I am complaining. I have sold two sets of plans, had a large increase in enquiries and 10 new people on the chat group since you revived this thread back on the first page. Keep up the good work.
To put the record straight, yet again.
Mark was not banned from the list, or even asked not to post. Anyone bored enough to want the full story should read the posts on the Yahoo chat groups harryproa site. Bit of interesting stuff about rigs happening there at the moment.
The comparison to 10m cats was an independant journalist saying a 15m proa was cheaper than a 10m cat.
All 3 of the 12m+ harrys sailing have undercover dinettes and all were built to a full set of plans.
Anyone wanting to see a cruising harry tested against "known benchmarks" check out the video at

YouTube - Visionarry Sailing

I guess as there are no cruising cats that sail at windspeed, (80% doesn't quite make it 44'CC ;-)) catty is correct, there is "no known benchmark".

Big Cat,
No sweat designing a harry to take 150 people. if they wanted the sailing at windspeed experience it would be quite large, maybe 80', I would have to do some numbers. But if they were happy at 20 ton/60' cat speeds (ie, slow), then the proa would not be much longer, and would be a lot lighter. We have a 60 footer with the accommodation you describe, including 2 queen size island beds, which will be available for charter in about 12 months time. It will easily cruise at wind speed, and be about one fifth the weight and one quarter the cost of your boat.
My apologies for calling your rig a junk rig. I built a rig similar to this a while back. I advise you to build a smaller one first and test it thoroughly if you want to save yourself a lot of time and money.

Roblanford,
I could not agree more.


regards,
Rob

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by rob denney

G'day,

I guess as there are no cruising cats that sail at windspeed, (80% doesn't quite make it 44'CC ;-))

regards,
Rob

Well, not in 20 knots in a 38 foot boat I guess. But here's a very nice video of a cruising cat sailing at 100% windspeed, which was posted by tnflakbait some time ago....:

YouTube - Catamaran Sailing Catalina Channel

IIRC this is a 30+ year old boat too.....

Edit: it's a 44 year old boat!

[fastcat435]

I know of at least 3 different performance cruising cats that can do windspeed
Gunboat
Atlantic
FastCat
yes these are all more expensive than A Harry Proa , all different concepts and obviously there is a market for all
Greetings

[catty]

Bringing peoples attention to the full lopsided catamaran story can only be a good thing for all who may become involved. I find your selective twisting of the facts a little strange, as you could put an end to any questions hanging over your designs by actual properly testing one in the environment it is intended for.

For those wishing to investigate more try checking out the posts from a few years ago on: The Multihulls Archives

As for you asking Mark Stephens not to post : Quote "As Harryproa is now Rob's I will honour his request and not make any further posts." Unquote.

[Whimsical]

Originally Posted by catty

I find your selective twisting of the facts a little strange,

Now thats funny

Mike

[rob denney]

G'day,

Catty,
What facts have I twisted? What "proper testing" would you accept?

That was Mark's comment, not mine. As I said in my reply, the harryproa group welcomes everybody who wants to talk about boats.

44CC and Gideon,
My comment was meant to be tongue in cheek. Sorry I forgot the smile icon.

Mike,
Yeah, made me smile too.

regards,

Rob

[Abaco]

Rob,

This thread got me interested in your designs, which lead me to the First Light blog. What is the current status of First Light. She was started in 12/06 and it appears the builder blogged his first 2 months of construction. What happened next? What is the current status of the boat?

Thanks

[BigCat]

first light - our 60' proa