Rigging a symetrical spinnaker on Leopard 44

[capn_billl]

Good info Phil.

I'm with you,I'd rather dump the tack than try to blanket with the main. With swept back shrouds I'm not sure how effective it will be.

What I'm going to try is to bear off a little, and release one tack, and try the sock.

I should be able to pull the sock down it it's not under too much pressure.

I'll have to try the dropping to deck method also, but I'm not sure my wife is good enough on steering to do that yet.

[tamicatana]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

I am an ex racer, so the main hard on offends my senses and stops me enjoying the gliding sensation my boats gets when she is led only by the nose. And I like the fun of a good kite set and drop. But that is probably a minority view.

Since I got my chute lessons from Randy Smyth, I figured he knew what he was talking about

[Chrisatlantic]

Symmetric spinnaker with a tack line from each clew down to a block on the respective bow and a sheet from each clew back to a block half way or further back on the respective rail.

Running DDW is easy with both tack lines doing justvabout all the trimming needed. As you head up you start trimming the leeward sheet and easing the leward tack line to let the leeward clew come aft. At some point you’ll need to ease the wineard tack line a bit to let the windward clew (tack) move toward the centerline.

Gybing is simple, bear away to DDW, center the sail with the tack lines and then continue the turn tightening the sheet on the new leeward side and easing the tack lines as needed to let the sail rotate to stay downwind of the mast.

We use an ATN sock to launch and douse our spinnakers (also jave an assym). A couple tips… continuous line should be long enough to run through a snatch block attached just forward of the mast. This may help retrieving the sleeve and can allow leading the line to a winch if needed (be careful, don’t just pull blindly!). If you fly the chute without the main (which we often do) have a plan for getting it down if the breeze comes up a lot. Yes, you can blow one tack line and the corresponding sheet but it still may be tough to pull the sleeve down or get the kite on deck without using the sleeve. But you can open the genoa and use that to blanket the chute making either recovery with the sleeve or just pulling the chute directly down very manageable.

The spinnaker is absolutely essential from our perspective to making the boat fast and fun on downwind legs. Both our chutes get lots of use but the symmetrical is easier if we are sailing a deep angle or if there is a chance we will be gybing. It’s also more stable when sailing deep but isn't as fast on a tighter reach and can’t sail quite as high as the assym. Given a good sized genoa or a screecher/code 0, I’d recommend a symmetrical chute over an assym if you were to have just one or the other.

[django37]

Leopards, Fountaine Pajots, Lagoons and other Condomarams are not so fast it pays to gybe more than 30 dgr downwind. Thus you go downwind with a big spinnaker and a long spinnaker pole, so you dont have to take the main down. Sonetimes it also helps to unfurl half the genoa. When raising or lowering the spinnaker, both main and genoa should be set, the genoa sheeted hard in and the spinnaker handled in the lee of both sails. Gybing, the genoa is furled 2/3rds out, so the spinnaker doesnt wrap itself around the forestay

[Chrisatlantic]

Don’t know about your cat but mine is pretty wide. Not saying a pole wouldn’t work or even make a small improvement, it might, but why bother? Spinnaker poles are for monohulls. Keep it simple.

[catsketcher]

Getting the kire down without the main up.

I have been experimenting with pulling the kite down with no main up. As I have stated before, I really like the way the boat sails with just a kite up but getting it down is a challenge. Most people, me included, pull the kite down from the forward nets, trying hard to stop the beast go in the water. We are better off than out mono friends but it is a trial still.

I went skiff sailing the other week and remembered how we get kites down on them. Skiff kites are huge compared to the rest of the boat. What is funny about kite gybes and takedowns is that they do it opposite to what you would think on a skiff.

When we started out in skiffs, to gybe we would ease the kite sheet, to try and let the kite blow around the jib. This didn't seem to work well. We quickly learnt that before we gybed we pulled the leeward sheet hard ON, which is counter intuitive. This worked really well. Watch 18ft skiff racing to see this technique.

Dropping the kite on a skiff requires pulling the kite hard on the leech and then blowing the tack line and then halyard. This led me to my technique for droping the kite on a square, where I blow BOTH kite tack lines and wind the sheet on till the tack comes right alongside the cockpit.

My boat has a nice gap between the caps and lowers that the kite easily fits between. This give me a controlled kite, which has a tight luff before dropping onto the deck. This technique works well, dropping the kite mostly onto the deck and allowing me to mop up the kite easily as it lies there.

I tried the same technique with a snuffer yesterday. Same deal, blow both tack lines and then haul in the sheet till the kite is right back alongside the cockpit. Then the luff is pretty straight and the snuffer had no issue pulling the kite in with one luff straight and the rest of the kite luffing out in front.

I need to keep on testing in more and more wind but if you have a snuffer, a fair bit of room between your caps and your lowers, you could try it out. Pull the kite back in the gap but ensure it can't get caught on spreaders or lowers, maybe use a sheet block mounted at mid length position for tricky set ups. I can get my kite right back into the aft sheet block fine, which means the kite is all above deck and flying nicely.

I will keep pushing the wind limits and if I perfect the technique I will make a video of it.

cheers

Phil

[nextis12]

Originally Posted by django37

Leopards, Fountaine Pajots, Lagoons and other Condomarams are not so fast it pays to gybe more than 30 dgr downwind. Thus you go downwind with a big spinnaker and a long spinnaker pole, so you dont have to take the main down. Sonetimes it also helps to unfurl half the genoa. When raising or lowering the spinnaker, both main and genoa should be set, the genoa sheeted hard in and the spinnaker handled in the lee of both sails. Gybing, the genoa is furled 2/3rds out, so the spinnaker doesnt wrap itself around the forestay

My experience with the need to gybe downwind has been different. In the Newport to Ensenda race last year we made time on boats gybing with asyms, we had a symmetrical up and went deep. In the few races I have done on a cruising cat the symmetrical and going deep have paid off.

The symmetrical is in a sock so I don't have the challenges with raising and lowering that you need to address. You may want to try the set up without a pole, given the width of the Cat we have not needed a pole and it makes the set up very simple. Just run the sheets back and the guys through a block on the bow, we did add a barber hauler on the sheet to help with trim.

[Franziska]

I know this is not a new thread, but here we go.

It's been a while since I used a symmetrical spi and that was with a pole on a dinghy.

Still, we will add a symmetrical spi to our inventory as a real downwind sail.
We are a pure cruising catamaran (not a Leopard though) and do not want to add a pole or extra winches.

Now I am wondering if anything speaks against keeping one clew with two guys at bows as a, height and athwarthship adjustable, bridle (="guy clew"), and running two sheet from the other clew (="sheet clew").
Basically treating the spi similar to an assymetric when gybing the sail, either outside in front of the boat by releasing the leeward sheet and pulling in the windward sheet.
Note, risk to run over the sheets.

Or by passing the "sheet clew" through the slot between the semi fixed "guy clew" and the rolled genoa.
Note, risk of an hourglass around the furled genoa.

In the above the sheets stay always on one clew and the guys on the other.

Background, I have a hard time getting the control lines onto our roof mounted winches and past the shrouds otherwise.
Might need to add some barberhauler to achieve the latter.
We will use the spi without the main but pull our runners tight before :-)
We do not have spreaders or diamonds, it's a simple rig with 3 sets of shrouds and 2 backstays.

We would like to avoid to have to add another set of winches at deck level because that would make single handing more difficult.

We will add a sock as well.

I appreciate any comments if that could work and if you would shift the "sheet clew" outside or inside (=between genoa and "guy clew").

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Franziska

I know this is not a new thread, but here we go.

It's been a while since I used a symmetrical spi and that was with a pole on a dinghy.

Still, we will add a symmetrical spi to our inventory as a real downwind sail.
We are a pure cruising catamaran (not a Leopard though) and do not want to add a pole or extra winches.

Now I am wondering if anything speaks against keeping one clew with two guys at bows as a, height and athwarthship adjustable, bridle (="guy clew"), and running two sheet from the other clew (="sheet clew").
Basically treating the spi similar to an assymetric when gybing the sail, either outside in front of the boat by releasing the leeward sheet and pulling in the windward sheet.
Note, risk to run over the sheets.

Or by passing the "sheet clew" through the slot between the semi fixed "guy clew" and the rolled genoa.
Note, risk of an hourglass around the furled genoa.

In the above the sheets stay always on one clew and the guys on the other.

Background, I have a hard time getting the control lines onto our roof mounted winches and past the shrouds otherwise.
Might need to add some barberhauler to achieve the latter.
We will use the spi without the main but pull our runners tight before :-)
We do not have spreaders or diamonds, it's a simple rig with 3 sets of shrouds and 2 backstays.

We would like to avoid to have to add another set of winches at deck level because that would make single handing more difficult.

We will add a sock as well.

I appreciate any comments if that could work and if you would shift the "sheet clew" outside or inside (=between genoa and "guy clew").

I would think that safest would be to gybe with the sheet outside, effectively turning the sail inside out. You would need the tack guys to be on a swivel so that they don’t twist around each other. The only challenge is to keep the lazy sheet going around the front from falling into the water - if you don’t have a bow pole then you could just lash a boat hook to poke out the front of your boat. The lazy sheet would then lie on the boat hook. I’m not sure that you could run the guys without a winch, if that’s what you are planning, if you want to adjust them while the sail is flying.

I wouldn’t want to gybe a spinnaker inside its luff - there is way too much risk of wrapping it around the forestay, especially with any rolling.

However, why not just run it as a symmetric with a guy and sheet on each clew, or even just a guy on each clew and not bother with sheets at all? Gybing is much simpler (pretty much don’t need to do anything). You’re not running a main so moving the tack back and forth isn’t that important. You would need two winches though.

Or, rather than a symmetric, especially as you want to run it like an asymmetric, why not an actual asymmetric? It will set much better with the relatively low and fixed tack you’re planning.

[chrisr]

we use an asymmetric kite, however if you must use a symmetric, the ones i have seen use what is effectively a tack line from each tack (clew ?) to each bow, plus a sheet from each clew (tack ?) to the stern

with such configuration it does not really matter over which stern the winds is coming and you don't need to gybe at all

does not work too far of square, but that's the nature of the symmetric kite anyway.

cheers,

[Chrisatlantic]

Running a sheet and tack line from each clew of a symmetric is great for ease of use snd makes gybing a non-event. Don’t omit the sheets, the leeward one will help bail you out if you have any trouble snuffing the sail into it’s sock. You can trim in the leeward sheet and ease the other sheet and tack lines while running off and pull the sail in behind the main where it will be blanketed, allowing you to douse without much drama. Hard to do that with only tack lines led to either bow.

Also, if you fly the chute without the main up, you can unfurl your genoa to provide some cover for getting the chute down. One more thought… with the genoa unfurled and trimmed in, there is basically no way for a spinnaker to wrap on the headstay.

[catsketcher]

I can't really see why the bridle would help. On a square you run a symmetrical to pulleys on each bow. These lines then lead aft. If the wind shifts to one side then the leeward bow line is eased and the "sheet" is pulled on.

Gybing a symmetrical is so easy you don't even notice it happens with both guy ropes on. If you can get one guy and one sheet back to your winches you should be able to get two guys back to them as well.

I did install some secondary winches to help with doubling up on the leeward side when I want some sheet tension but still want the leech tension of an eased guy. But I had the winches spare as they used to be halyard winches.

cheers

Phil

[Chrisatlantic]

Good point on using the leeward tack line (aka lazy or leeward guy) to achieve tension on the leech of the spinnaker by adding some ‘down’ to the sheet’s ‘aft’ pull. Improves power and stabilizes the sail.

[capn_billl]

Just a follow up for posterity.

I rigged as per above suggestions, and successfully flew it.

I just used a single line on each side from tack through a block at each bow to cam cleat at helm.

I kept one sheet on the windlass, and the other locked on the cleat. (I changed my 3 block Spinlock cam to a 4 block so I had an extra).

It flew well at 8 to 10 knots, but I have since added a third line for lateral or downward stability if needed.

Dousing was easy. I just eased one of the sheets until it luffed, then yanked the sock.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Boatguy30]

I have pole on my cat and the Norseman custom 48 Endangered Species has a full J length pole.

Works great. For polling out genoa also