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Old 22-02-2021, 20:58   #1
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Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

Hi

I would like to revisit the issue of cost/speed/comfort by seeking any advice of those who have actually addressed this issue in a practical sense, rather than by spreadsheets.

I would like to ignore cost and reframe the discussion in regard to length/speed/comfort.

Leaving aside the real parameters of inherent hull speed vs length, my preference, after owning two production boats in the past, is for a faster comfortable boat less than 50ft. I find that beyond 50ft there are several mitigating factors which have been discussed at length on many threads herein.

The trouble is that I am not necessarily convinced that this equation is achievable.

For practical purposes let me define specification for comfort.

At 1.9m tall I need to be able to stand up throughout the boat
At least 400l water capacity
At least 800l fuel capacity
At least 2 50HP motors
At least 2KW Solar
At least 600a/h lithium
At least 200cu l of refrigeration
At least 20K BTU air con
At least 100l watermaker
2.9m dingy with 15Hp motor
One master hull and two guest cabins
One head in each hull
6 man liferaft

For practical purposes let me define faster

(a) Typical 200nm per day passaging as compared to the 160nm per day of a production boat
(b) The ability to sail at 6kn in less than 10Kn wind

Now I am painfully aware that many on this channel would regard my comfort definition as a luxurious specification, so constantly reiterating this view is unhelpful. This is my requirement and reflects the requirements of many passaging cruisers I have discussed this issue with.

I have now studied (and sailed) many boats. It is clear to me that an O45 cannot achieve this spec in terms of load carrying capacity and still sail fast but an O51 can. A balance 450 (in its several variants) cannot achieve this, but a Balance 521 can (I am not sure about the Balance 482 and I do not want to wait for 3 years to find out). I know that the smaller seawinds cannot achieve this and still sail fast. I am not sure about the new seawind 45 footer and I do not want to wait for 5 years to find out.

I have now purchased a Lightwave 45 which I am equipping in order to determine the speed/comfort balance that is possible.

I have to say that on the basis of calculations alone I am quite skeptical that a suitable result can be achieved with a sub 50 ft boat, but I am keeping an open mind.

So I am interested in seeking feedback from those who actually have experimented with this issue with an actual boat sub 50ft, and actual cruising passages over extended distance and periods, and the performance results they obtained with increased load carrying capacity.
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Old 23-02-2021, 00:11   #2
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Re: Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

I'm very bias towards Schionning but they can do that with plenty to spare, mines 20 years old and 48' it could do it easily. The new ones are better. As it is, the guy built the saloon in mine made it a bit lower but close to 1.9 at a guess, hulls are taller, with smaller openings through bulkheads. It's not made to carry that much fluid but it could carry the weight and make your speeds with ease.
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Old 23-02-2021, 00:40   #3
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Re: Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

Your engines are too big and your fuel capacity unnecessary. A light fast sailing boat does not need to motor much if you can sail at 6kn in 10.

It is power to weight ratio that mainly determines performance. It is unlikely you will achieve this in a production boat. It is not economic to mass produce the level of finish using extreme materials or to spec every component down to the last piece of wire in this size range. Your Lightwave is one of the better production boats in terms of performance but does it really need 55ho engines and 800l of fuel?

At 10 tonnes DWL it is 25% heavier than it needs compared to a Schionning, Hughes or Shuttleworth of the same size that will easily meet (a) and (b).
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Old 23-02-2021, 00:48   #4
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Re: Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

Well, our cat is a bit longer (nominally 55 feet but actually 53.8 feet) and comfortably achieves that passage target (and much better than 6 knots in 10 knots of breeze unless you mean dead down wind; what are you thinking?).

Your engine size and fuel capacity are for a heavy accommodation-oriented boat that doesnít sail very well. As an example, our cat has 2x 37hp engines and 2x 200l fuel capacity. Both aspects are plenty for a boat that is sailed rather than motored.

For that aircon you will need a generator, or a much bigger battery bank. Either option adds quite a bit of (possibly) unnecessary weight. If you spend time in marinas aircon is apparently useful, but outside of marinas not so much.
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Old 23-02-2021, 10:08   #5
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Re: Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

Congrats on your LW 45 purchase. Wonderful boats. Sadly we have recently sold our 45, due to grand parent duties and lifestyle changes. We had a square top main and would often sail > 6kts in 10 knots apparent. Cant remember the exact numbers now. We planned on 8 kts for passages, and usually found this to be about right unless in heavy or very light conditions. Along with everything on your list, we also had a lot of stuff on the boat, dive gear and compressor, kayak, paddle boards, bikes etc, and a 2.4 m dinghy with 20 hp, that acted as our dive boat. So a fair bit of opportunity to reduce the weight if we didn't have the diving criteria.

I am 183, so had no problems, not sure how you would go at 190m, probably ok as Roger (the builder would be about 190).

As you note a 50ft would enable all the things you have in your list......with the obvious caveat of increased costs and substantial marina fees etc.

Hope you enjoy your Lightwave. I understand that Lightwave have a 52 ft model under development, not sure of release date
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Old 23-02-2021, 12:54   #6
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Re: Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

Hi Glenn

I assume you owned blue shift. It is a beautiful boat. Current owners in Mooloolaba right now. I had no problems with standing room on the boat. The latest L45s are a bit heavy imo. I am refurbishing an older sports model which should run a tonne and a half lighter. If that works ok I will ask Roger to build a lighter and longer boat. That reverse bow additional front bulkhead should in theory be customisable to lengthen the boat. The 52 is based on a Perry design and not my cup of tea. I am in contact with the owner of the latest 45 being manufactured and he is pondering a few ideas to improve the performance of the boat.

The proof will be in the pudding in actual performance. I am not swayed by opinion, nor spreadsheets, but rather prefer hard data in documented cruising performance. If I have to go 50ft+ I will but not without trying other options first.
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Old 23-02-2021, 13:35   #7
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Re: Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Well, our cat is a bit longer (nominally 55 feet but actually 53.8 feet) and comfortably achieves that passage target (and much better than 6 knots in 10 knots of breeze unless you mean dead down wind; what are you thinking?).

Your engine size and fuel capacity are for a heavy accommodation-oriented boat that doesnít sail very well. As an example, our cat has 2x 37hp engines and 2x 200l fuel capacity. Both aspects are plenty for a boat that is sailed rather than motored.

For that aircon you will need a generator, or a much bigger battery bank. Either option adds quite a bit of (possibly) unnecessary weight. If you spend time in marinas aircon is apparently useful, but outside of marinas not so much.
Yes, I should have specified a 3KVA generator as required.

Whilst I respect your choice of an O55L it does not conform to my definition of comfort. The new O55 conforms to my definition of comfort and the owners of these boats would disagree with your assessment of the required engine size and fuel capacity. I do not think you could say that the latest O55 is not a sailing boat.

If you are going to outlay $2-$3 million for a boat then in windless conditions you want reasonable speeds and that requires greater hp. With technological change of course these motors have become lighter and more streamlined.
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Old 23-02-2021, 19:36   #8
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Re: Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Hi

I would like to revisit the issue of cost/speed/comfort by seeking any advice of those who have actually addressed this issue in a practical sense, rather than by spreadsheets.

I would like to ignore cost and reframe the discussion in regard to length/speed/comfort.

Leaving aside the real parameters of inherent hull speed vs length, my preference, after owning two production boats in the past, is for a faster comfortable boat less than 50ft. I find that beyond 50ft there are several mitigating factors which have been discussed at length on many threads herein.

The trouble is that I am not necessarily convinced that this equation is achievable.

For practical purposes let me define specification for comfort.

At 1.9m tall I need to be able to stand up throughout the boat
At least 400l water capacity
At least 800l fuel capacity
At least 2 50HP motors
At least 2KW Solar
At least 600a/h lithium
At least 200cu l of refrigeration
At least 20K BTU air con
At least 100l watermaker
2.9m dingy with 15Hp motor
One master hull and two guest cabins
One head in each hull
6 man liferaft

For practical purposes let me define faster

(a) Typical 200nm per day passaging as compared to the 160nm per day of a production boat
(b) The ability to sail at 6kn in less than 10Kn wind

Now I am painfully aware that many on this channel would regard my comfort definition as a luxurious specification, so constantly reiterating this view is unhelpful. This is my requirement and reflects the requirements of many passaging cruisers I have discussed this issue with.

I have now studied (and sailed) many boats. It is clear to me that an O45 cannot achieve this spec in terms of load carrying capacity and still sail fast but an O51 can. A balance 450 (in its several variants) cannot achieve this, but a Balance 521 can (I am not sure about the Balance 482 and I do not want to wait for 3 years to find out). I know that the smaller seawinds cannot achieve this and still sail fast. I am not sure about the new seawind 45 footer and I do not want to wait for 5 years to find out.

I have now purchased a Lightwave 45 which I am equipping in order to determine the speed/comfort balance that is possible.

I have to say that on the basis of calculations alone I am quite skeptical that a suitable result can be achieved with a sub 50 ft boat, but I am keeping an open mind.

So I am interested in seeking feedback from those who actually have experimented with this issue with an actual boat sub 50ft, and actual cruising passages over extended distance and periods, and the performance results they obtained with increased load carrying capacity.
I think you can get everything listed except the fuel (it's 600L total) in an HH50. So, still not sub 50.
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Old 23-02-2021, 19:36   #9
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Re: Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Yes, I should have specified a 3KVA generator as required.



Whilst I respect your choice of an O55L it does not conform to my definition of comfort. The new O55 conforms to my definition of comfort and the owners of these boats would disagree with your assessment of the required engine size and fuel capacity. I do not think you could say that the latest O55 is not a sailing boat.



If you are going to outlay $2-$3 million for a boat then in windless conditions you want reasonable speeds and that requires greater hp. With technological change of course these motors have become lighter and more streamlined.

The new O55 is a real disappointment to me - it harkens back to the flagship of the first generation by name, but completely goes away from the simple and fun ethics of the original design, and of the new generation too. The new boat is almost twice as heavy as ours and therefore needs way more power, both sail and power, demonstrated by its stats. More weight does allow for more capacity (also nearly double of our boat), so if thatís what you need then itís all good.

I expect that Outremer decided they needed a more comfort-oriented boat added to their current lineup. Everybodyís definition of comfort is different and for a couple (as we are) Iím not sure what extra comfort the new design has thatís not undone by the price tag and the extra power requirements.
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Old 23-02-2021, 20:04   #10
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Re: Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

Have a look at this, you can add all the extras later, Switch 51, based on Lagoon 470.
https://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2006/switch-51-3742345/
and

https://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2004/switch-51-3697312/
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Old 23-02-2021, 20:06   #11
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Re: Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

Schionning Solitaire
If you can do without some of the comfort gforce 1500

The solitaire is currently at the front of my list to build.
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Old 23-02-2021, 21:27   #12
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Re: Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
The new O55 is a real disappointment to me - it harkens back to the flagship of the first generation by name, but completely goes away from the simple and fun ethics of the original design, and of the new generation too. The new boat is almost twice as heavy as ours and therefore needs way more power, both sail and power, demonstrated by its stats. More weight does allow for more capacity (also nearly double of our boat), so if thatís what you need then itís all good.

I expect that Outremer decided they needed a more comfort-oriented boat added to their current lineup. Everybodyís definition of comfort is different and for a couple (as we are) Iím not sure what extra comfort the new design has thatís not undone by the price tag and the extra power requirements.
Outremer did not decide. Their customers did. The reality is that the balance 526 was drawing potential customers away and they had to respond, so they copied the versahelm and produced a modernised boat sitting between the 51 and the 5X.

Leaving price aside this is a fantastic boat. Probably my choice if I were to venture above 50ft.
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Old Yesterday, 15:26   #13
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Re: Revisiting Cost/Speed/Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Outremer did not decide. Their customers did. The reality is that the balance 526 was drawing potential customers away and they had to respond, so they copied the versahelm and produced a modernised boat sitting between the 51 and the 5X.

Leaving price aside this is a fantastic boat. Probably my choice if I were to venture above 50ft.
Just a minor point, the Vershelm wasn't a Balance Innvoation, it has long been used on Monos and Tri's, interesting and creative adoption though I will grant
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