Registering and Overseas boat

[cwjohm]

Hi

I do not want to revisit the whole registration thing as it has been done to death. I am looking at the possibility of buying a boat in the EU that is close to 180 day VAT limit, and is Vat Free currently. I will register with AMSA so please no long and interminable discussions on this point.

Having done this before for a new imported boat I know it takes many forms and many days and requires at the very least a bill of sale for the boat in order to register with AMSA.

My question is what is the situation with a used boat registered in the EU which is about to expire on the 180 day limit, whilst I wait for the AMSA registration to process which could take a month or more. Can I sail the boat under the old registration? Can I enter another country, like Morocco under the old registration in order to restart the VAT clock.

Or put it another way before buying the boat do I have to insist that the owner transfers the boat out of EU prior to sale, but even if I do and the VAT clock restarts can I sail it under old registration whilst I wait for AMSA registration.

[bluenomads]

We are in a similar boat (ha!) - buying a EU partly-paid VAT boat (Caribbean) that we'll get registered with AMSA. We were going to be asking the seller or broker to do the de-registration just before we take ownership. But I didn't think AMSA would take as long as you've suggested, so it worries me.

As far as I can understand - probably much less that you already know - a boat must be on a national register, if only for insurance. Unless you want to be a pirate . So taking a boat off the current register before AMSA is ready should mean you can't take the boat anywhere. I am now thinking of waiting until AMSA puts it on before taking it off the current one.

So listening on this topic with interest...

[cwjohm]

Hi

As far as I understand it the Caribbean is a little easier in that you simply sail a certain distance offshore and exchange documentation and as long as you have a Bill of Sale made out to a non-US citizen upon re-entry then registration is not an issue.

EU is different in that they have this 18 month entry permit and if you have not exited then VAT is automatically payable at an amount depending on the country in question. Possibly the answer is that the seller has to move the boat to non EU country, perform the sale and then a new Vat free transit certificate is given to the new owner, but I am not sure if the boat registration is not yet complete that you can apply for such a certificate or even sail at all.

[bluenomads]

Well, my understanding is this:

• VAT is paid on a transaction. If the VAT has been paid, and subsequent transactions occur within the EU (not Schengen), AND the boat does not leave the EU for more than 3 years, THEN the VAT stays with the boat
• if an EU resident buys a VAT paid boat that is still VAT-paid (first point), then all is ok
• if a non-EU resident buys a VAT paid boat that is still VAT-paid (first point), then all is ok too.
• if an EU resident buys a boat without VAT paid, then VAT is due immediately in the country of purchase (I believe) unless they get a permit to export it (immediately).
• if a non-EU resident buy a boat without VAT paid (your situation), then I think you have a couple of options:
  • Ask to extend the TI (temporary import) of the boat for six months. There are examples of success as this is referenced in the EU legislation, but some countries are reportedly not permitting extensions.
  • Seek to get a new TI (18 months) because you are a new owner. I don't think you'll success as the TI is on the boat, not the owner (from my reading of the legislation).
  • seek an exemption on the TI's 18 month given you will export her from the EU within a given timeframe. You may have to bond the boat with customs to do this.

In my case, the boat is VAT paid in St Martin, which is a French territory. It's supposedly in the EU for some things and not for others! It has 8.5% VAT paid for St Martin, and supposedly this can be offset against full VAT should we import into the EU (like France!).
In reality, we'd buy her and register as Australian, take her to the Med for a few years and see what we like/want to do. In the Med we can keep her 3-year-inside-the-EU category safe for the already paid 8.5% VAT, as long as the 18month TI rule is adhered to.

[meirriba]

AFAIK, a boat in the EC, VAT unpaid - if not being sailed, can be put in sort of bonded state with the customs for the non-active period.
This period will extend the 18 months grace period and may help you to complete formalities.
Best thing to do is to consult customs or customs agent about the s.m.

[jmschmidt]

I know you are tired of the "documentation, registration" song and dance but you are inquiring about one the most complicated legal matters that could possibly be dreamed up by humans that affect ordinary sailors. There are dozens, even hundreds of variables for each person and each boat's situation. There is no one sentence, one paragraph, or even one book that will answer all your questions.

[surge]

Hi, I
've just joined the forum and my wife and I are looking at pursuing a similar purchase, but not as far down the purchase journey as you are.

Re the Australian registration, I suggest contacting the Deputy Registrar of Ships, Shipping Registration Office, Maritime Operations at AMSA 02 6279 5921. I spoke to him and the AMSA team at the Sanctuary Cove Boat Show and they were very helpful and should give you an indication of how long it takes.

If you need the persons name - contact me

Re the EUC VAT issue, all I know at the moment is that you have to export the boat, I know if you purchase a new cat - say from Lagoon they charge you a fee of 250.00 for an export permit/license, (which I think you may know) it may be worthwhile contacting an export consultant/company to assist. Not sure if it applies to used.

Peter

[cwjohm]

Originally Posted by surge

Hi, I
've just joined the forum and my wife and I are looking at pursuing a similar purchase, but not as far down the purchase journey as you are.

Re the Australian registration, I suggest contacting the Deputy Registrar of Ships, Shipping Registration Office, Maritime Operations at AMSA 02 6279 5921. I spoke to him and the AMSA team at the Sanctuary Cove Boat Show and they were very helpful and should give you an indication of how long it takes.

If you need the persons name - contact me

Re the EUC VAT issue, all I know at the moment is that you have to export the boat, I know if you purchase a new cat - say from Lagoon they charge you a fee of 250.00 for an export permit/license, (which I think you may know) it may be worthwhile contacting an export consultant/company to assist. Not sure if it applies to used.

Peter

Hi

I am well aware of the methodology of registering a boat with AMSA as I have done it before, and believe me when I say that the time that they say it takes is not representative of the actual time it takes.

You have to export a new boat. You do not have to export a second hand boat.

As I said my issue has little to do with registering with AMSA but more to do with the actual process of administering VAT on supposedly VAT free used boats.

I fully agree with jms that this is one of the most complex schemes ever dreamed up by humans. From what I am gathering there are only two ways to get caught up with VAT on a used VAT free boat. The first is to check in to a country and a vigilant customs officer notices that the boat is VAT not paid and 18 months have passed since the boat papers show entry to the EU. This is unlikely as customs are more focussed on the person than the boat and rarely ask for documentation on previous entries for the boat. Secondly, and more likely when the boat is sold and there is a change of owner on the boat then they will likely check for VAT status. In fact is seems that boat registration is pretty much irrelevant in the whole process. What is more relevant is that they will say "you are Australian - why is the boat registered in EU" to which you reply "I am awaiting AMSA registration" at which time an alarm bell will ring and they will check previous papers for boat entry into the EU and will not hesitate in the least case to slug you VAT or in the worst case impound the boat.

It seems to me the take away from this is that if you buy a boat in the EU that is VAT free that has been in the EU for some time you had better make sure it has papers which show it entered the EU less than 18 months ago and your very first stop has to be a non-EU country to reset the VAT clock. Probably optimal also to attempt to get AMSA registration prior to sale (you need a pro-forma bill of sale released ahead of the actual sale for this to happen) or wait it out in the non-EU country until AMSA registration comes through.