Pulling the wind forward off the wind

[Parallaxcat]

Great post . I have close to the same set up as well as sail (Dacron) and use it the same way. I don’t have a tack line and the furler lives permanently on the sprit. When the wind goes deeper I just drop the furled sail on the tramp and hoist the spin from the ama. I installed a second winch and clutch on the mast to reduce compression on the boat and allow greater tension on the 2-1 halyard. Often the screecher is just bungied to the tramp but if things get a bit sporty I remove the quick disconnect pin and disattach the sail from the furler and stow the whole thing sheet and all in the locker . I too am shopping for a lighter composite to replace the old Dacron unit.

[Sparx]

I do agree the Harken’s Reflex Furler has nice features. It is my first choice of a continuous line furler.

I have not yet figured how to route a continuous furling loop into my salon bridge deck, where all the other sail controls are. Still working on ideas. I have a concept of putting the furling line on the deck immediately in front of one of the forward opening windows. Concept is I want to furl from the comfort and safety of the salon bridge deck.

Sailing today in sporty conditions really confirmed I have got to get furling operated from the salon.

[Sparx]

Originally Posted by Parallaxcat

Great post . I have close to the same set up as well as sail (Dacron) and use it the same way. I don’t have a tack line and the furler lives permanently on the sprit. When the wind goes deeper I just drop the furled sail on the tramp and hoist the spin from the ama. I installed a second winch and clutch on the mast to reduce compression on the boat and allow greater tension on the 2-1 halyard. Often the screecher is just bungied to the tramp but if things get a bit sporty I remove the quick disconnect pin and disattach the sail from the furler and stow the whole thing sheet and all in the locker . I too am shopping for a lighter composite to replace the old Dacron unit.

Welcome to the forum. I an glad to read your contribution. You describe features I want to include in my setup. Thanks

[Sparx]

Sailing today in 12 knots of wind main and jib were pulling well down to about 120 AWA. Course over ground was 145 TWA at just under 8 knots, so 70 to 75% of TWS.

Got me wondering if the screecher was worth the complications.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by Sparx

Sailing today in 12 knots of wind main and jib were pulling well down to about 120 AWA. Course over ground was 145 TWA at just under 8 knots, so 70 to 75% of TWS.

Got me wondering if the screecher was worth the complications.

You need a complete set of figures to assess this. The AWS in your example is still abaft the beam so will be less than the TWS. You would be better off with an asymmetric spinnaker under these conditions. It is not until you are able to create your own wind ie AWS is higher than TWS will you see the advantage. Try sailing to the AWA ahead of the beam, get your AP to do this and it will sail a series of power curves increasing speed and reducing the angle until it stalls (luffs) and then powers up again. This will be hard to achieve with a wide sheeting angle in light winds and will demonstrate the importance of boards and being able to point high with a screecher.



A good example of how to explain this is an ice boat that is almost always close hauled even downwind, except DDW.

[Sparx]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

You need a complete set of figures to assess this. The AWS in your example is still abaft the beam so will be less than the TWS. You would be better off with an asymmetric spinnaker under these conditions. It is not until you are able to create your own wind ie AWS is higher than TWS will you see the advantage. Try sailing to the AWA ahead of the beam, get your AP to do this and it will sail a series of power curves increasing speed and reducing the angle until it stalls (luffs) and then powers up again. This will be hard to achieve with a wide sheeting angle in light winds and will demonstrate the importance of boards and being able to point high with a screecher.



A good example of how to explain this is an ice boat that is almost always close hauled even downwind, except DDW.

My deep downwind example was a poor choice. I was trying to communicate that the main and jib provide satisfying sail performance over a wide range of angles, including even relatively deep sailing angles, all the while pulling the wind well forward.

Typically close hauled the AWA is 20 - 25 degrees forward of TWA under main and jib. This difference grows to AWA 35 to 40 degrees forward of TWA in the loose to beam reaches.

I read your post as alluding to achieving screecher performance where the boat is sailing a TWA well down wind while experiencing an upwind AWA. I am interested in this. Under main and jib it is common for the boat to be running say a 100* TWA on a 60* AWA demonstrating delivering a down wind course on an AWA forward of the beam. It seems reasonable to expect deeper sailing at similar AWA from a relatively flat cut screecher that is 2x the size of the jib.

This has been my thinking leading to thread. But I can only guess how far this extends to improved downwind sailing. To your point about power curves, I am afraid I have yet to noodle how to translate demonstrated performance into estimated performance beyond my simple demonstration of concept of pulling the wind forward using main and jib.

This discussion along with similar discussion with my preferred sail maker has me realizing all the little bits I need to get right to have a total package that I will find satisfying.

Then today I was realizing again how well this boat sails with the main and jib, which caused me to wonder if a screecher is worth the trouble. So I ask, on your boat is the screecher essential equipment, and under what AWA, TWA, AWS do you find it helpful?

BTW we also have a large asym which asym carries up to around 90 AWA while delivering as high as 135 TWA, again demonstrating pulling the wind forward. Of course this sail is great deep downwind.

[fxykty]

Depending on the size of your standard headsail (self tacking jib vs overlapping genoa) and on the characteristics of your cat, a screecher provides great performance for close reaches to beam reaches in light winds and beam reaches to broad reaches in moderate winds. In stronger winds the regular sails likely are just fine.

If you have just one extra sail, then a top down furling asymmetric spinnaker is the most useful for light and moderate reaching and running.

If you think you have a performance hole in lighter wind with your standard sails, particularly close reaching (apparent wind angle), then a screecher (allows upwind in light wind if smaller, useful if you have a self-tacking jib) or gennaker or Code 0 can fill that hole.

[Tupaia]

You have discovered that a light fast boat only benefits from additional sails be they asymmetrics or screechers under about 10 knots of wind. The limit of my screecher is 14 knots apparent.

They basically keep you sailing while others are motoring.

Sailing in 8-10 knots on the beam, if you are lucky enough to be wanting to go that way, will give you a magic carpet ride at 8-10 knots because of the slight sea state. We once did a passage of 1300Nm in 6.5days close hauled under full main and screecher under these conditions.
Light winds are the bane of passage making. Not so much if you are doing short distances when motoring is an easy option.

[Sparx]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Sailing in 8-10 knots on the beam, if you are lucky enough to be wanting to go that way, will give you a magic carpet ride at 8-10 knots because of the slight sea state. We once did a passage of 1300Nm in 6.5days close hauled under full main and screecher under these conditions.
Light winds are the bane of passage making. Not so much if you are doing short distances when motoring is an easy option.

Today we got a perfect illustration of your example on a 25 mile tight to beam reach across Chesapeake Bay in 6 to 9 knots wind speed.

Seas were less than 1 foot. Boat speed was around 75% of wind speed under main and jib. So the boat could have been going maybe another 2 knots faster under hypothetical screecher.

As it was we reached our destination in early afternoon. There would have been a certain joy at running near wind speed under hypothetical screecher, but an earlier arrival would not have significantly changed the day. Now if we were running offshore in these conditions the additional miles made would have been significant boost to voyage.

[Alistair242]

Once you get below that 8-10 knot mark sailing at an AWA of 45-80 the screecher is irreplaceable. Also great further off the wind on long passages when you dont want to leave the spinnaker up at night. Great sail and a must for boats with smallish self tacking jibs IMHO.

[bensolomon]

Originally Posted by Sparx

Today we got a perfect illustration of your example on a 25 mile tight to beam reach across Chesapeake Bay in 6 to 9 knots wind speed.

Seas were less than 1 foot. Boat speed was around 75% of wind speed under main and jib. So the boat could have been going maybe another 2 knots faster under hypothetical screecher.

As it was we reached our destination in early afternoon. There would have been a certain joy at running near wind speed under hypothetical screecher, but an earlier arrival would not have significantly changed the day. Now if we were running offshore in these conditions the additional miles made would have been significant boost to voyage.

I'm on the Chesapeake,, as well. The thing about the spins and Code zeroes are that the effort on hoisting has to be cross referenced with the total time of the trip.

[Sparx]

Originally Posted by bensolomon

I'm on the Chesapeake,, as well. The thing about the spins and Code zeroes are that the effort on hoisting has to be cross referenced with the total time of the trip.

Right there wi8th you on this. Our spinnaker is not always used just because it is a process to get it on deck, hoisted and settled. A couple miles on traffic or a course change starts to add to the drama. Dropped the sock to the deck the other day thinking it could ride there for a bit. Ten minutes later I am stuffing it below as apparent wind was threatening to launch it.

We are looking at a 25 mile downwind run thi8s

[GRIT]

Hi Brent. I'm late to the conversation, but here's my take.

We have a code zero too. It has a torque line in the luff, and is on a roller furler; and furls from the bottom up.

We use it in light winds as soon as the wind goes beyond 80 degrees TWA, and it brings the apparent up to around 45 to 50. As the wind strength increases, our awa needs to go further aft (it was cut too long for a 2:1 halyard, so we use the 1:1, which means the luff starts to go to leeward in 12 knots) or we luff the sail.

We can launch it in higher winds as close as 90 TWA, which brings the AWA to 55, but where it really shines is at 100 to 125, where the AWA comes to about 60-80 and the boat speed is anywhere between 80 and 100 percent of the TWS, up to 16 knots or so.

We're quite underpowered in light winds with our working jib (100%), and will be looking at screechers and assymetrical spinnakers this fall.

As an aside, since we don't have a spinnaker, we use the code zero all the way to 180, by feeding it with the mainsail. It's too small to compete with a spinnaker, but it's far and away better than our 100% jib. Wing on Wing we do 50% of the wind speed. I know fast cats aren't supposed to go there, but my wife loves wing and wing, so there is the odd occasion when we will do that.

The roller furling is indispensable for me, as I can fly it and store it single handedly.

I know it's not supposed to be stored this way, but ours is up all the time. It has a uv strip, which I tell myself will protect it from harm. I only take it down if there's a big blow coming; though the boat sails fine with it up, up to 35 knots AWS, which it was two days ago. It's never threatened to come unraveled.

In a blow, if it's furled, I just drop it onto the net. At the moment, we don't have an easy way to disconnect it from the pole, so the bottom 6 feet of the sail just sits along the pole, and the rest sits on the net.

Cheers, and good luck with your decision.

Paul.

[catsketcher]

Tupaia's breakdown of the reasons for a Code 0 are the same as mine. Although I often keep my reacher up until about 20 knots.

I will use mine to do apparent wind sailing until about 15knots, runnings deeper and deeper, until I am using it like a running kite. I have pulled the main down and just run under reacher dead downwind for a day. I even pull the genoa out on the slightly windward side and go down wing and wing up until the aforementioned 20 knots. That means it covers a huge amount of range.

My comments are based on mostly 40-80 mile daysail cruising where the reacher will allow me to sail whilst others motor, or allow use to get to the anchorage with a couple of hours to walk around. But even a 15 miule sail will have me pop it up. Mine takes about 10 minutes to get ready.

I would point out that bringing the wind forward is not the result you want, but the effect of increasing speed. I used to sail skiffs and always loved the feeling of generating speed once we popped the kite and then the boat starts breathing and then the kite luff curls and you bear away, sometimes up to 30-40 degrees. All because of the speed generated by the kite, but screechers are easier for our bigger cats.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

I will use mine to do apparent wind sailing until about 15knots, runnings deeper and deeper, until I am using it like a running kite. I have pulled the main down and just run under reacher dead downwind for a day. I even pull the genoa out on the slightly windward side and go down wing and wing up until the aforementioned 20 knots. That means it covers a huge amount of range.

Something you might like to try for lazy downwind sailing wing on wing. Although counter intuitive fly the screecher slightly on the windward side instead of the jib/genoa. The latter being behind will then feed wind into the screecher and keep it filled.