Poor construction

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by yeloya

. . .

Anyway, you asked for and I gave my personal opinion..

. . .

Extremely valuable and interesting; thanks for that.

I'm not sure we've ever had a major charter operator on here -- this perspective is really interesting

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Polux, Bavaria has lost more keels than just on their match series. Two Finns were rescued in the middle of the Atlantic when the keel fell off their 39 ft. Bavaria cruiser and sunk. Fortunately they were picked up by a ship. R

Yes I know even if the two accidents are not related and are years apart. And I know of more yachts that have lost the keels, some of them very strong steel boats like the Vand De Stadt and some very expensive high end yachts, all due to improperly maintained keels and keels not properly repaired after groundings that the owner dismissed because all seemed to be alright.

Never heard details (they were never made public) about that boat, if it was subjected to groundings or if the keel bolts were fully tightened but I do know that after the Match problem Bavaria increased to the double the thickness of the bottom on the keel zone regarding what it was required by RCD.

[robert sailor]

Yes your right, they were years apart..I think the 39 Bavaria cruiser lost her keel in 2013. I don't have any hard data to support this but my gut tells me the modern high production cruisers are probably strong enough in the keel area when first constructed however they don't seem to have the resilience after a grounding and from what I'm told are extremely hard to properly inspect after a grounding because of the full liner construction. Losing keels used to be a high tech race boat thing and while today it is still very rare it seems to be part of mainstream boats. I know that companies like Beneteau call for a haul out and full inspection if you ground the boat but in many areas you are a long way from a travel lift.

[Polux]

I had a look and this post from another forum seems to nail it:

"The yacht is from 1990. It's pretty well travelled.
This report can be read several ways depending upon how the boat was maintained.
1. The keel bolts lasted 22 years with no maintenance.
or
2. The keel bolts failed even though the boat was well maintained.

It would be nice to know how the keel failed.
Whilst there are many boats out there older than this one with keels still bolted on without maintenance this boat will have had significantly more bending actions than most due to the use it's been put through.
My conclusions would be:
1. Bolts were worn out and should have been replaced
or
2. Keel bolts fine but significant grounding in their history.
or
3. Repetitive drying out where loads were not distributed evenly.

I'm sure others may have suggestions but I wouldn't be prejudicing this as a Bavaria issue unless the hull laminated failed."
Bavaria lost keel again [Archive] - Yachting and Boating World Forums

I found out that another Bavaria 39 had lost the keel, the same way that jeanneau lost its keel, with a grounding at high speed and as in the case of the Jeanneau or on the Bavaria one, the strength of the laminate was up to the task allowing the boat to continue sailing, on both cases not even noticing that they had lost the keel:

"A Bavaria 39 on a delivery run from Denmark to Norway lost its keel in a grounding. They didn't realize the keel was gone (!) and motored 100nm to the importer who craned it out and had a surprise. The article concluded that the bolts were sheared off and the laminate was OK. The boat will be repaired."
Bavaria 39 loses keel [Archive] - Yachting and Boating World Forums

The boat was reported has having hit a rock at 8k and after that had done 100nm without the delivery skipper understood that there was a problem with the boat (motoring)

From the information on magazine article, posted on a forum:

"The boat had a hard grounding at 8 knots on the Swedish west coast but as no internal damage was visible the owner continued the voyage home (about 100 nm) under engine.

When the Norwegian Bavaria rep should move the boat for hauling and inspection they felt that it manouvered in an unnatural way and when hauling it the keel was missing.

There apperantely was no significant damage to the glass structure of the boat but the 12 of the 13 20 mm keel-bolts had sheared clean off and the aftermost where still there with a small piece of the cast iron keel attached.

The keelbolts where of a stainless quality called A4/F80 which is a medium strength quality. The keel was also glued to the hull using a material called Plexus MA310 which is a high strength filler/glue. The designer claims that the bolts alone should withstand a shear force of 120 tons which seems reasonable to me and speculate that the rock hit the keel right under he hull."
Bavaria 39 Cruiser lost keel - Sailing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

[robert sailor]

Interesting, something similar happened close to our home in Vancouver where a newer Hunter hit a rock while motoring and immediately lost its keel and was able to continue on to the marina, good news for beamy boats with high initial stability. These stories ended up with somewhat of a happy ending but offshore your screwed because you are going to turtle. I was looking at one of Robert Perry's designed bolted on keels just before it was bolted on and believe me with the heavy keel stub and something around 24 studs in the keel I don't care what it hit it was not going anywhere. I also know that it wasn't cheap to build it that way.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Interesting, something similar happened close to our home in Vancouver where a newer Hunter hit a rock while motoring and immediately lost its keel and was able to continue on to the marina, good news for beamy boats with high initial stability. These stories ended up with somewhat of a happy ending but offshore your screwed because you are going to turtle. I was looking at one of Robert Perry's designed bolted on keels just before it was bolted on and believe me with the heavy keel stub and something around 24 studs in the keel I don't care what it hit it was not going anywhere. I also know that it wasn't cheap to build it that way.

Talking about keels, we had an accident two years ago: a russian guy has grounded an island in the middle of the night at 7 kts of speed under engine. Guess what, nothing happened... The boat was Dufour 40 from 2005, limited edition sport version with a lead keel. (nothing to do with current models)
As lead is a soft metal , there were some stones 2-3 cm inside the keel with the impact of the grounding. Bolts, lamination, everything was intact..
Unfortunately, today most if not all other keels I've seen were cast iron and generally very poor in quality. Cost savings are OK but not on the keel and the attachment to the hulls: unlike multis, monos need the keel to be able to stand up.
If even an Oyster 825 can lose the keel and sink, to me it's a concern and personaly I feel more comfortable on cats. Long ago I hit under sail a underwater rock and damaged the starboard keel on my cat. The keels on FP's are sacrifical, nothing happened to the hull and I continued sailing for another week.

Finally, some people may believe that losing keel can 100 % be avoided by routine checks and inspections when they touch anything. I don't know, I cannot prove otherwise but believing that all keel accidents happened on a boat that necessarily touch something or not controlled for many years, doesn't look to me very logical.

This is the official statement made by Oyster:

Secondly, our inspection of the other 825s (not including Polina Star III) highlighted a possible weakness in the process used to build the inner structure of those vessels. This process has not been used on any other Oyster Yacht built over the last ~40 years and will not be used again.

If the most prestigious boat builder like Oyster can make mistakes, why others cannot ??


Cheers

Yeloya

[SV DestinyAscen]

Talk about a drift. OP was soliciting opinions for multihulls and gets a discussion on keels instead.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Interesting, something similar happened close to our home in Vancouver where a newer Hunter hit a rock while motoring and immediately lost its keel and was able to continue on to the marina, good news for beamy boats with high initial stability. These stories ended up with somewhat of a happy ending but offshore your screwed because you are going to turtle. ...

The good news is that offshore the chances of finding a rock are slim

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by meatservo

I appreciate the valuable information from everyone, just trying to get as much data/opinions as I can before making a decision...


meatservo

You come from a technical / mechanical background. I'd suggest before laying that kind of money out that you educate yourself as much as possible. I tried and what I found out without naming any names, that there are a great many poorly constructed boats out there, enough so that I was astonished.
However many of the mechanical bits are the same on a very expensive boat and the cheapest, engines, transmissions, winches etc. So to save large sums of money is tough, got to really cut deep and take many shortcuts, and I assume hire inexpensive, untrained workers?
There is no FAA and I don't believe any real Certification standards like there is with aircraft, it is a Buyer Beware type of thing, and your talking a bunch of money so start reading

[Cotemar]

WHAT CE CERTIFICATION MEANS FOR BOAT BUYERS

In 1998 the European Union created a Recreational Craft Directive that established design standards for most recreational boats from 2.5 to 24 meters (8 to 79 feet). New and used boats sold in Europe, including boats built in the US – or anywhere else – for export to Europe, must be certified as complying with one of four design categories.

The following four design categories help to quantify a boat’s degree of seaworthiness, based on the wave height and wind speed the boat is designed to encounter and handle. The further offshore the vessel is expected to venture, the higher are the expectations for construction strength, stability, freeboard, reserve buoyancy, resistance to downflooding, deck drainage and other seaworthiness criteria.

Category A – Ocean: covers largely self-sufficient boats designed for extended voyages with winds of over Beaufort Force 8 (over 40 knots), and significant wave heights above 13 feet, but excluding abnormal conditions such as hurricanes.

Category B – Offshore: includes boats operating offshore with winds to 40 knots and significant seas to 13 feet.

Category C – Inshore: is for boats operating in coastal waters and large bays and lakes with winds to Force 6, up to 27 knots, and significant seas 7 feet high.

Category D – Inland or sheltered coastal waters: is for boats in small lakes and rivers with winds to Force 4 and significant wave heights to 18 inches.
Since the number of people onboard can impact a boat’s seaworthiness, changing the number of people on the boat can also change its category, with more people aboard -- and more weight and potentially less stability -- putting a boat into the next lower category.

While the European standards are no guarantee that a boat will be suitable in all respects for the conditions in its designated category, they help to separate the purely inshore craft from those capable of operating safely in more demanding conditions.

All boats built by Fountaine Pajot are rated in one of these four CE categories.

FP uses Divinycell in the deck and balsa in the hulls. FP states they use Divinycell in the deck because it is required for CE certification.

[SV DestinyAscen]

CE standards are like building codes. Minimum standards you have to adhere to but if you stick to the minimum you still have a lousy house.

CE anticorrison is only for five years. Not a lot of time.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

WHAT CE CERTIFICATION MEANS FOR BOAT BUYERS



In 1998 the European Union created a Recreational Craft Directive that established design standards for most recreational boats from 2.5 to 24 meters (8 to 79 feet). New and used boats sold in Europe, including boats built in the US – or anywhere else – for export to Europe, must be certified as complying with one of four design categories.



The following four design categories help to quantify a boat’s degree of seaworthiness, based on the wave height and wind speed the boat is designed to encounter and handle. The further offshore the vessel is expected to venture, the higher are the expectations for construction strength, stability, freeboard, reserve buoyancy, resistance to downflooding, deck drainage and other seaworthiness criteria.



Category A – Ocean: covers largely self-sufficient boats designed for extended voyages with winds of over Beaufort Force 8 (over 40 knots), and significant wave heights above 13 feet, but excluding abnormal conditions such as hurricanes.



Category B – Offshore: includes boats operating offshore with winds to 40 knots and significant seas to 13 feet.



Category C – Inshore: is for boats operating in coastal waters and large bays and lakes with winds to Force 6, up to 27 knots, and significant seas 7 feet high.



Category D – Inland or sheltered coastal waters: is for boats in small lakes and rivers with winds to Force 4 and significant wave heights to 18 inches.

Since the number of people onboard can impact a boat’s seaworthiness, changing the number of people on the boat can also change its category, with more people aboard -- and more weight and potentially less stability -- putting a boat into the next lower category.



While the European standards are no guarantee that a boat will be suitable in all respects for the conditions in its designated category, they help to separate the purely inshore craft from those capable of operating safely in more demanding conditions.



All boats built by Fountaine Pajot are rated in one of these four CE categories.



FP uses Divinycell in the deck and balsa in the hulls. FP states they use Divinycell in the deck because it is required for CE certification.

Yet a category A certified boat can have brass thruhulls with a life expectancy of 5 years? Something wrong there.

[smj]

Another point, Lagoon has balsa cored decks yet are CE certified?

[a64pilot]

OK so how is it determined that a boat is a Class A boat?
Is there a set of rules that determine structural limits and are there conforming articles built that are tested to these rules and have to demonstrate minimum strength, does a Certification agency show up and conduct or witness these tests etc?
How about is the boat taken out in weather that is Class A and test sailed?

Finally, 40 kts and 13', really? I have stumbled into worse than that in the Gulf of Mexico, that is all they have to take, at 14' and 41 kts, they don't have to survive?

This is not a comment about any boat manufacturer, just the Certification

[SV DestinyAscen]

Also for POV grain of salt. CE certification is a EU system and not of the member states.

The same folks that overlooked the VW diesel cheating and have no enforcement mechanism (All done at the member states level).

I like the common market, but it's pretty clear to me anyway that most of the regs are intended for opening up market and protecting member state and not really about consumer protection.