Planning For A Survey?

[scarlet]

We will be starting our official search to purchase a Cataman (home) in about a year. We've made our list of features we want.. we've narrowed our our boat list to 5 models released in specific years. We've saved hard, and have determined our budget range for the purchase, and are excited about getting started.

We live in Kansas, and we, obviously, will have to travel for each and every boat we are interested in. That is fine.. we've planned for it. However, I don't know how to plan for a survey.

So, can someone take me through this? here is the scenario.. We look and find a boat on line that ticks off all our wants/needs. It is in Fort Lauderdale. We arrange for a look-see, and set up our flights. We go see it, and we like it. Now we want it surveyed. Can I get a survey while I am still down there? or does it usually take days or weeks to get one arranged? can I arrange for one before we travel to Fort Lauderdale, then cancel it if we don't like the condition of the boat when we see it?

Should we do a sea trial first before we even think of the survey? Also, could we set up the survey in 2 steps? First have the survey at dock (of all the systems, etc).. and if that checks out THEN set up a second survey to have it hauled out? because, I'm thinking that it doesn't make sense to pay to have a boat hauled out if it doesn't check out to our satisfaction on the "onboard" survey. right? Also, I would definitely want to be there during the survey, so that the surveyor can show me exactly what the problems are. I'm assuming that is allowed.

Also, how do I find a good surveyor? (and not by word of mouth.... ) is there a certification that surveyors are required? is there a review site, or something? would a broker be the best place to find a good surveyor? or perhaps a boat financing company? where do I start? and can we use that person for every survey we do? (understanding that we would need to pay for their travel)...

Am I missing anything?

[Cheechako]

Well, getting a surveyor on a moments notice is not going to be easy.
But first off... that frame of mind might be dangerous... flying in to look at a boat is often disappointing... so dont assume you will want to buy it at all. Better state of mind is that you dont want to buy it.... and see if it impresses you enough to go further.
Look at the boat intensely, open things, question everything. Ask if it's had blister repairs. etc. Leave and sleep on it overnight. Look again the next day. I find you see more that second time.
The surveyor you want is the one that will spend his time on the "not so obvious". You can even tell him that if you have inspected the boat well yourself. You dont care that "X hose is not double clamped" or "the fire extinguishers are out of date". On a Cat especially you care about all that cored hull and deck, etc.
You could fly back alone for the survey, or you can talk to a couple surveyors and ask what their availability might be for the time you are there, and if it's possible they might be available.
Find a surveyor by word of mouth and maybe off this forum.

[scarlet]

Oh.. on on a related note, our broker told us, that if we see a boat (or if she finds one that she thinks we may like) we should put in an offer, and put down earnest money before even seeing it as "the really good ones" go fast. My instinct is to say that is ridiculous. I wouldn't put in an offer and earnest money on a house not seen first. I mean, lets face it, there are some very talented photographers that can make a boat look a HELL of a lot better than it is in person, for sure. And, I just feel it isn't fair to the owner, as they may turn down a real offer for us, when we don't even know if we want to buy it. BUT if what she says is true, and the good ones go in days... it maybe something to reconsider. Anyone have an input on that?

[odonnellryan]

I haven't done it, but I don't think it is unusual to put an offer that is contingent on a survey.

I don't think it is unusual for the other way around, either: survey before offer.

Are you going to be financing the boat?

Remember, the broker might "work for you" but just like a realtor, they don't have your best interest in mind (for the most part).

They want to sell boats quickly.

[Cheechako]

I suppose it happens occasionally, but I wouldn't do it. It's definitely not the norm. It could happen but the world doesn't end.

OTOH, you can walk away anyway and get your deposit back. Dont deposit without a contract and read the contract first! Make sure you can walk away based on inspection of the vessel... even if the seller agrees to fix everything. For a while in Florida brokers had verbiage in the contract that they were due their fee if you walked in that situation.
I've bought a catamaran before with just a photo copy of a check faxed to the broker. I never give 10% either.
I once asked a broker to call me from the boat for sale. I then asked him specific questions as he walked around the boat. Like "Rub your hand on the gel coat, is it powdery? does it leave white residue on your hand?" etc.

[jdazey]

Originally Posted by scarlet

Oh.. on on a related note, our broker told us, that if we see a boat (or if she finds one that she thinks we may like) we should put in an offer, and put down earnest money before even seeing it as "the really good ones" go fast.

Don't get sucked in by pressure tactics. There are always other boats, especially of you're considering production cats.


I wouldn't make an offer on the first boat. Look at lots of boats online to find candidates. Go take a careful look at a bunch. It will be a learning experience. When you finally decide to proceed with a particular boat, spend some time on it. Better yet, try to spend the night on it. If anything seems "off", walk away. If it still seems OK, make an offer and line up a surveyor. At this point, an earnest money deposit with the broker will be appropriate. It may well take a week or two to surveyor lined up. If the surveyor finds issues that the owner did not disclose, renegotiate the offer. FWIW, two of the boats we've bought were the first ones we looked at. We continued the search and in the end went back to the first boat. We dodged a lot of bullets in the meantime.


We're very pleased with our current boat (21.5kts top speed), but the purchase wasn't smooth. We flew from Seattle to Ft Lauderdale after questioning the owner over the phone. When we arrived, some items I'd asked about over the phone turned out to have issues. Between that and some communication problems, we walked away and continued the search. The owner called twice over the next six months reducing the price and addressing the issues. We made a second trip to check it out, made an offer, put down some earnest money, and arranged for a survey. The surveyor found some additional undisclosed problems leading to a renegotiation of the price. In the end it worked out for us.



Cheers,

[smj]

Originally Posted by scarlet

Oh.. on on a related note, our broker told us, that if we see a boat (or if she finds one that she thinks we may like) we should put in an offer, and put down earnest money before even seeing it as "the really good ones" go fast. My instinct is to say that is ridiculous. I wouldn't put in an offer and earnest money on a house not seen first. I mean, lets face it, there are some very talented photographers that can make a boat look a HELL of a lot better than it is in person, for sure. And, I just feel it isn't fair to the owner, as they may turn down a real offer for us, when we don't even know if we want to buy it. BUT if what she says is true, and the good ones go in days... it maybe something to reconsider. Anyone have an input on that?

If you find a cat you like definitely put a contract on her before spending the money for travel. That ensures you the boat will be available when you get there. Make the contract contingent on visual inspection, survey, sea trial, insurability and possibly financing if needed. If you don't like the boat when you view it then refuse the offer based on the visual inspection contingency. Even if you like the boat try to look at others if any in the area.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[MV Wanderlust]

When we went back to take a serious look at what turned out to be our first large boat, we didn't know what questions to ask or what to look at. We contacted a respected local broker and arranged to pay him for an hour's time to come with us. He didn't do anything intrusive and the boat stayed in the water but he sat in the engine room for a while, opened all of the bilge access panels, etc. His opinion gave us a bit more confidence in making an offer.

That being said, we probably wouldn't do that again. We've learned a tremendous amount over the last few years and a member of this forum, who is a professional surveyor, has produced a step-by-step guide with photos on exactly what to look for, what to walk away from, etc. It's a mini-education in itself. We have made extensive use of the concepts he detailed in his guide in our continuing search for our next boat. It has given us a lot of confidence in knowing when to walk away and what information to give a surveyor when proceeding further. Here's the link: Marine Survey 101 It might help you, too.

[nhschneider]

I have only bought and sold a couple of boats but the sequence of events has been the same.

1. I go visit a boat in which I have an interest. It might require me to visit many boats and travel significant distances to find one which I can see myself owning. Once I have found that boat, I go to step 2.

2. I submit an offer and write a check as earnest money (the check is almost never cashed), based on a successful survey and sea trial. If I reject the boat for any or no reason, my earnest money is returned to me in full. If the buyer agrees to my offer, I proceed to step 3.

3. A sea trial is scheduled and usually the owner is not invited but I may choose to hire the surveyor to attend. I make a list of discrepancies, items in need of attention and questions. If I accept the sea trial, I proceed to step 4.

4. Hopefully, I would have interviewed (can be done by phone) several surveyors and found one who gives me confidence that he or she can inspect the boat to my satisfaction. I have seen surveys where the surveyor does nothing more than give an inventory of what's on the boat and I could do that myself. I want a surveyor who not only knows yacht construction but also knows potential trouble spots for that boat. I might also hire a rigging surveyor and an engine surveyor. Regardless of how competent a surveryor might be, however, there's no guarantee that all of the problems will be identified in a survey.

5. Once I have the completed survey, I'll get estimates on the costs to repair/replace/modify as per the surveys recommendations. It is then my option to go back to the broker/owner and suggest that all or a portion the the costs be deducted from my original offer. The negotiations can go any number of ways, from the owner flatly refusing to budge to accepting my modified offer or anywhere in between.

All that being said, we purchased our current boat sight unseen - we were out of town when the boat came on the market and our broker insisted it was the perfect boat for us so we make a full price offer, of course, subject to a sea trial and survey. There was very little risk on our part as we could walk away from the deal at any time but it did secure the boat until we were able to see it. Once we had conducted the sea trial and survey, we made the owner an offer of 25% less than their asking price, as it was, where it was, which the owner accepted. We've owned the boat for 22 years now and we still love it.

Fair winds and calm seas.

[Heath68]

Some interesting approaches.. following

[JPA Cate]

Scarlet, take a look at this link, and see if it helps: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...1-a-78671.html

Also, use the Custom Google search (under the Search menu), a while back there was a discussion among the surveyor members of CF about how to find a good one. There is a professional association to which they may belong.

Ann

[rabbi]

Process that worked for me so far


1. Find a boat online
2. Ask all questions you may have and get recent high res photos
3. If the boat seem to be worth the asking price then go there and have a thorough look (lifting all bilge panels, checking machinery, electronics, etc) and take lots of photos. Sometimes you find some problem on a photo when back home which you overlooked when there in person.
4. Make an informal offer subject to survey and seatrial
5. If the owner is OK with the informal offer, make it a formal offer by setting up a written purchase agreement, which sets all dates for seatrial /survey /acceptance / payment / delivery /etc, and all exit clauses. This purchase agreeement is only valid if backed with a deposit of 5-10%
6 Seatrial (with surveyor)
7 Lift out and survey
8 Re-negotiate


At any point in the process I'd possibly walk away. Since the buyer pays for #6 and #7 its hard to re-negotiate afterwards. After paying 2-3k in travel cost, lift, and survey its hard to just walk away and the seller knows this.

#1 is work as you need to constantly monitor the market and be alert.

#4 is the trickiest part, you need to know a bit about the market to find a realistic market value. A reasonably priced boat may be worth full asking price. An boat with an inflated asking price OTOH may be worth only 60% of the asking, but how many owners will agree to such a low offer?


Deposits:
I doubt many owners of valuable boats will allow a seatrial or survey without a written purchase agreement and a deposit paid. Personally I don't want to give every tire kicker a free ride.

As a buyer I would not place a deposit on a boat sight unseen. That said, I have sold a boat to folks who have never seen it. They only sent a surveyor, accepted the boat based on the survey, and first time they saw her was months later for handover.

Certainly the deposit may only be paid once a formal purchase agreement (subject to xx) is in place.

[SV Bacchus]

What we did, after finding a boat online, was put in an offer contingent on our satisfaction after seeing the boat in person and contingent on a satisfactory survey.

Why?

It was a higher demand owner's version, had a slew of nice upgrades and was the make/model we were interested in.

After the vessel made it to Ft. Lauderdale we drove down and personally inspected the boat then arranged for a survey/sea trial/haul out. All that was scheduled approximately one week later.

If you go this route be sure you allow for the full process when figuring out how much time you need for acceptance/refusal when filling out your contract. Ours had to be extended a couple of times due to Irma, the boat didn't make it to Ft. Lauderdale when the seller thought it would. Then we needed to extend it once due to the survey and the owner was quite gracious in granting the extension.

[Bean Counter]

In the Americas I think a reputable buying broker is worth appointing. A broker with a few offices is also handy. A good buying broker will do a condition report which is a preliminary look at the condition of the boat. If they are near the location of the boat this would cost nothing. You could also ask a surveyor to do a first run review for an opinion but before sea trials, but that will cost you a fee. As others have said if you see a boat on line that ticks all the boxes, ask your buying broker to go have a look for you first, and make an offer through them subject to survey, finance etc etc - they may also know the boat and its history, it is a small world in catamaran land. They may also try and steer you towards one of their own clients, so you just need to be a little wary on that score. We have found the team at The Multihull Company pretty good in this regard, having acted on a our behalf on a site unseen boat, but of course there are others around. This article is worth a read though https://multihullcompany.com/article...sed-catamaran/

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by nhschneider

I have only bought and sold a couple of boats but the sequence of events has been the same.

----------snipped good stuff-------------------------------

3. A sea trial is scheduled and usually the owner is not invited but I may choose to hire the surveyor to attend. I make a list of discrepancies, items in need of attention and questions. If I accept the sea trial, I proceed to step 4.

----------snipped more good stuff------------------------
Fair winds and calm seas.

My question to you is if the owner is not invited, who is responsible for, and captaining the boat - esp if it's for sale by owner?

So you're moving up from a 28' boat to a 42' boat, and as the owner I'm going to trust in whose abilities? and whose insurance?

Otherwise I'm good!