Performance of charter cats?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by smj

Not altogether correct. Well sailed performance daggerboard cats have been known to outpoint and outpace performance monohulls upwind.

Please read the thread title and quit swinging balls..

[smj]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Please read the thread title and quit swinging balls..

I didn’t see anything comparing monohulls to cats in the title, and maybe clarifying “charter catamaran” instead of catamarans would have helped your point?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by smj

I didn’t see anything comparing monohulls to cats in the title, and maybe clarifying “charter catamaran” instead of catamarans would have helped your point?

Charter Mono's are a different animal to the general charter cat with its higher freeboard and high bridgedecks etc.
Its no point saying how high a cat can point without taking into account its leeway, the higher you point the greater the leeway.
The advantage a fast cat has over a mono going to windward is speed.. I found that though Mono's could/can point higher with less leeway, my speed more than balanced it out over the tacks to the same destination against boats upto twice my length.. an average 10/11kts compensates for the extra leeway.. mind it was not a charter cat just a simple Wharram Tiki 26..
The average Lagoon struggles to reach that on a reach.

[bil56]

you want a performant cat, see this:
https://www.marsaudon-composites.com/en

./.

[Zygodactyl]

Rent the biggest one you can, and bring your own spinnaker. The charter catamaran fleet is pretty much floating barges. They suck upwind and they don’t provide enough sail power downwind when they might otherwise at least stand a chance of decent performance.

[SV Confianza]

Originally Posted by WatchingWaves

Hi, I thought I'd chime in since I didn't see any other posters who have sailed the Bali Catspace. I chartered one for a week this past March in BVI. (This was at the time the BVI gov't seized most of the charter fleet so Moorings could not get us the boat we had intended).


Anyway, the Catspace was a beautiful, comfortable boat but it was terrible under sail in any conditions.


I can't claim vast experience with lots of different cats. I'm really a monohull guy. And, I'm not a racer, so I can't claim I'm the best at sail trim.



I've bareboated on a variety of Leopards from 38 to 50 feet and one FP. I think that gave me a decent baseline for expectations of a charter cat. The Bali Catspace was a major disappointment in sailing performance from those.


The self tacking jib was so undersized that the (tiny) main sail completely over powered it (unless you reefed the main) making steering "upwind" really difficult, the rudder had to be way over to keep the boat from rounding up.



They added a high roach main sail (to get a little more sail) but it had a topping lift, so you could not tack effectively. The battens hung up on the the topping lift destroying the sail shape. Again, had to have in at least one reef just to be able to tack.


This boat was brand new. I was the second customer to take it out. I think I was the first to try to sail this thing.


The rear wall "garage" door to open the entire salon to the outside was awesome. And, it has a full size home style refrigerator. Great space inside.


Just don't try to sail it.

You loosen the topping lift when the sail is full raised, so it doesn’t interfere with the sail shape. The sail holds up the boom just fine.

Just don’t forget to tighten it when you drop the sail (don’t ask how I know please).

[CarlF]

This discsussion forgets that all cruising sailboats are a compromise. A 40ft Bali in charter service is hard to beat for value for money for a week's charter vacation with a family. Sailng performance is not important when you're unlikely to go farther than 50NM.

At the other end of the modern cruising cat spectrum would be somethinig like the Outremer or a Chris White Atlantic. Which costs 2-3M. These are not particularly comfortable at anchor. And are cramped below. At anchor every tiny wave is amplified by that carbon fiber. It's also reqires a crew that is willing and able to sail the boat up to its potential and keep it safe while doing so. Two Atlantics have flipped - a fairly high percentage of those built.

My Leopard 50 is in the middle. It's faster on all points of sail than my last boat which was a 55ft shoal draft monohull ketch. Leeway is about the same too. It does a comfortable 8-9kts upwind and down - with a lot of help from that long waterline. 10kts-12kts is not uncommon. The Leopard beats the ketch in every category except classic good looks, available travelifts, and wide enough marina slips.

The sails are made by Dave Calvert, onetime helmsman of Playstation which still holds a transatlantic cat record. The props fold. I have a parasail for downwind. And Dave showed me how to get the most out of the sails - for example, most cats I see - even performance cats - are sailing with the leech far too open.

So the OP has an interesting challenge. No bareboat charter boat is likely to have folding props and performance sails - without which they will be a "dog". Nor will he have learned how to sail it in a week's charter - I'd raced monohulls for decades but it took me a year to start to feel competent trimming a cat.

What I would recommend is buying waterline - getting a 50ft Leopard is far cheaper than most 45ft performance cats even after you've added the upgrades to make it not sail like a charter cat. Your average day's run will be about the same. And it's a safe bet that your spouse will much prefer the interior and comfort -- and is more likely to come with you. If you don't mind sailing with a bunch of guys, you should get a racing boat and go racin'

If I was looking for a "performance" cruising cat with daggerboards and startling speed - Chris White would be at the top of my list. But you won't find those for bareboat charter.

[Sos]

I think anyone with a bit of sailing experience can just look at a Bali and know it wasn't designed for sailing, and should not be upset when proven right!

If no experience, then will more than likely motor most of the time, and will love the charter anyway. It's a holiday after all

[Chotu]

Agree completely with the last couple posts. Boats are made for different purposes. This boat was made as a luxurious floating apartment to relax in. Other boats, like mine, were made to sail first and are not nearly as comfortable and nice or spacious as these Bali catamarans. Mine also does not perform as well under motor as this Bali because motoring is an afterthought in my design while sailing is an afterthought in the Bali designer’s mind.

Here are the clues:

1) Bali 4.2 is a 41ft boat. It weighs in at 16 tons!!! Or 32,000 lbs. Holy crap. I’m 50 ft and have an absolute max displacement of 9 tons or 18,000 lbs. A quick cheat to estimate how heavy a boat is is to just look at the bottom paint. Get a feel for how much boat is above the water relative to how much needs bottom paint. The boat with less bottom paint weighs less. See first, second and 3rd pics.

2). The width of the individual hulls. These are incredibly beamy hulls. Must be a palace inside. Mine? You can’t even get a berth into a hull. They have to go up on the bridge deck because the hulls are too narrow. You have to climb up to them from the hulls which are essentially hallways and heads and showers. The fatter the individual hulls, the slower the boat. See first and last pics

3) Due to the layer cake design, your mainsail loses some area at the bottom. In pics I see they put the boom way, way above the coach house roof. So you’re missing all that sail area. Another reason it’s slow. See second and last pic

4) it has mini keels. That means it can’t point and make good VMG to windward. It will have side slip and not sail as well to windward. See second pic

5). It has the bridgedeck clearance of a hovercraft if you check from the stern. Every time the stern kisses the water it’s like putting the brakes on. See last pic

Those are why it’s not fast. And the boat was designed for a purpose. Just like the previous posters were saying. You can’t fault it. It’s just filling in a niche. It’s pretty much a power boat with some sails to create entertainment and fun. And that suits some people just fine. Think of all the really roomy motor sailers in the mono world. Very nice boats. People like them.

You can’t expect every Catamaran design to have performance. Some are just not designed for that. But if you look at the things I listed above when you go for your next charter, check the boat out relative to those items on my list above, you can decide which boats are faster or not.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by Snore

I've delivered "more than a few" FPs and Lagoons. I can usually convert 50% of TWS into SOG if the AWA is 90 or less. Unless it is blowing like snot, getting a good yield with an AWA under 90 is darn near impossible on most cats.

Do SeaWinds, or Catanas or other high-end cats perform better? Most likely in the right hands, with the right sails they are fast.

You've obviously only sailed nothing but the absolute worst of the worst cats. Even cats that I consider to be a dog to sail like a Lagoon 421 will easily sail at less than 60º AWA.

Cats like mine, which mind you has pretty **** old sails, will still happily sail at 30º AWA all day......and I'm no professional. We'll do 8.5-9 knots SOG in 15 knots TWS at 30º AWA. I can squeeze it down to 26º if I need to pinch.

[ChrisJHC]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

You've obviously only sailed nothing but the absolute worst of the worst cats. Even cats that I consider to be a dog to sail like a Lagoon 421 will easily sail at less than 60º AWA.

Cats like mine, which mind you has pretty **** old sails, will still happily sail at 30º AWA all day......and I'm no professional. We'll do 8.5-9 knots SOG in 15 knots TWS at 30º AWA. I can squeeze it down to 26º if I need to pinch.

Don’t see a lot of Mumby 48s in the charter fleet!

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by CarlF

At the other end of the modern cruising cat spectrum would be somethinig like the Outremer or a Chris White Atlantic. Which costs 2-3M. These are not particularly comfortable at anchor. And are cramped below. At anchor every tiny wave is amplified by that carbon fiber. It's also reqires a crew that is willing and able to sail the boat up to its potential and keep it safe while doing so. Two Atlantics have flipped - a fairly high percentage of those built.

I really don't agree with a lot of this. Most performance cats (like the above mentioned) are completely comfortable at anchor and a usually a lot more comfortable under sail. There are exceptions at the extreme end, like my mates 4t 43' Oram. That's pretty active at anchor. Our other mates 7t 43' Crowther on the other hand is very comfortable.

Cramped isn't really accurate for a lot of them either. Palatial? No. But definitely not cramped.

Re needing a pro crew, the beauty of these boats is that you can reef them down, sail past everyone AND have a very high margin of safety. You don't need to sail them at the bleeding edge.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by ChrisJHC

Don’t see a lot of Mumby 48s in the charter fleet!

Not suggesting you do! That was just aimed at the "cats can't sail" comments.

[HuffinPuff]

I have said this on another thread... I got a 4.0 up to 4.4 knots in 6.1 knots of wind. So, not sure what was going on with your boat, but I was pleasently surprised.

When I first started, I was doing about 3.3 knots... Tighted the front sail and added a bit more twist to the rear sail and we were hitting 4.4. The average was around 4.2. Wind went from 5.5 knots to about 6.2. Then it died... the wind that is.

[juliocharts]

Originally Posted by HuffinPuff

I have said this on another thread... I got a 4.0 up to 4.4 knots in 6.1 knots of wind. So, not sure what was going on with your boat, but I was pleasently surprised.

When I first started, I was doing about 3.3 knots... Tighted the front sail and added a bit more twist to the rear sail and we were hitting 4.4. The average was around 4.2. Wind went from 5.5 knots to about 6.2. Then it died... the wind that is.

What sails were you using? It is impossible that you were doing 4.4 knots in 6.2 knots of true wind with the regular mainsail and the standard self tacking jib