Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-06-2024, 04:28   #286
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 4,291
Re: Performance of charter cats?

I am no boat builder but wouldn't it be possible to use eg a ORC42 and give it 48ft hulls and a 44ft rigg. Build it out of foam and polyester, underwatership and strength area vinylester/epoxy.

With that hulls you can never overload or actually load it heavily, its by default light and the waterlength give it more speed by default. The 44ft rigg can be handled with manual winches, 1 or 2 powered or security.

Marina charge multihulls by sqm so that would be 48ft long but only 7.5m wide. A lot cat ran by a couple in that 40-44ft size so you don't need that huge deckhouses and salons.
CaptainRivet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2024, 05:06   #287
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: On my boat
Posts: 344
Re: Performance of charter cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinkircating View Post
I would consider the modern Outremer cats performance oriented, not necessarily super fast, but they are significantly "faster" relatively speaking than any monohull or Lagoon/Leopard/Bali cat out there. For reference Outremer's website say's, they've manufactured 400 cats since inception which are spread around the world. The production cats are well over 20,000 heavily concentrated in the charter capital of the world that is the Caribbean. So maybe not 1/200, but definitely not 1/20 probably closer to 1/80.

My thought is (because I'm the same way!) is that because they stand out amongst the masses so many people perceive they are more common than they actually are.

As far as not especially faster, it is again in perception and what you personally define as "especially". Is that 5%, 10%, 20%? My experience has been they easily are averaging 20% (or greater) faster passage times when comparing apples to apples and they are both sailing not motoring. If you allow motoring of course the gap narrows and if the wind is light, there is just zero argument for a seasoned sailor to say they are not especially faster...but again your and my especially could me two completely different things.

Cheers!
We are in Horta in the Azores. One of the busiest harbours in the world at the moment with all the boats crossing the pond, west to east. Quick head count of catamarans at anchor. 11 in total, of which 2 are Outremers. One is Great Circle, of Utube fame
Wandering1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2024, 05:58   #288
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2024
Location: Seychelles is vessel base
Boat: Leopard 51 PowerCat
Posts: 300
Re: Performance of charter cats?

Weight is deadly on every aspect not just speed.

Nov last year on roughly 400nm outer island Seychelles trip, a Privelege 615 sail cat used 920 liters of diesel - often had to run motors with sail to keep to about 6 knots. It has almost 200sqm sail area.

Our Leopard 51 power cat doing the same trip used 640 liters! So with some wind assistance the Privelege used 50% more fuel!!

Why 6 knots? At 3 knots the long hops would take up almost four days of your holiday!
Johan Leopard51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2024, 08:54   #289
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: EC
Boat: Cruising Catamaran
Posts: 1,414
Re: Performance of charter cats?

I would say a Privilege 615 could do 6 knots+ on one engine at 75% of WOT. at 9 L per hr. So they should have burned 400/6*9 = 600L that is motoring the whole way. If they chose to run 2 engines at lower rpms then I am not surprised at 900L
Tin Tin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2024, 16:57   #290
Registered User
 
JustMurph's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Brisbane/Norway
Boat: Mumby 48
Posts: 347
Re: Performance of charter cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainRivet View Post
I am no boat builder but wouldn't it be possible to use eg a ORC42 and give it 48ft hulls and a 44ft rigg. Build it out of foam and polyester, underwatership and strength area vinylester/epoxy.
There are options out there if you're willing to look for the smaller designer/builders. For example, all of the Oram catamarans fit that bill. Long hulls on a smaller bridge deck cabin, a simple but strong build and a small rig. Like the stealths, they usually have pretty decent interior volume for what they are.

It's a shame I can't find it, but I remember a photo of my mates old 43' Oram sandwiched between 2 40' condos in a marina. It looked comically tiny, despite being significantly longer. And of course it was comically faster (than just about everything). That thing could run rings around my Mumby in everything other than heavy seas.

I remember a fun race up the inside of Moreton Island between the Oram, our other mates 43' Crowther and my Mumby. Myself and the Crowther got a head start by hugging the coast and heading straight for the destination, while the Oram had a slow start to get a bit further off shore into stronger wind. We had a solid head start and were pretty powered up by the end. flying the Code D and consistently sitting over 15 knots SOG with a top of 18. However, once that Oram turned onto the wind and got the Code 0 up, it was on! He managed to reel us back in and beat us over the line! And he was single handed. That's the beauty of having a small rig.
JustMurph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2024, 17:05   #291
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 7,461
Re: Performance of charter cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainRivet View Post
I am no boat builder but wouldn't it be possible to use eg a ORC42 and give it 48ft hulls and a 44ft rigg. Build it out of foam and polyester, underwatership and strength area vinylester/epoxy.

With that hulls you can never overload or actually load it heavily, its by default light and the waterlength give it more speed by default. The 44ft rigg can be handled with manual winches, 1 or 2 powered or security.

Marina charge multihulls by sqm so that would be 48ft long but only 7.5m wide. A lot cat ran by a couple in that 40-44ft size so you don't need that huge deckhouses and salons.
Wasn’t the original TS42 slightly over 42 feet,but then the factory started adding a swim platform which made it slightly over 46 feet?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0581.jpg
Views:	24
Size:	323.4 KB
ID:	290672   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0582.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	397.0 KB
ID:	290673  

smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2024, 17:31   #292
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 4,291
Re: Performance of charter cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMurph View Post
There are options out there if you're willing to look for the smaller designer/builders. For example, all of the Oram catamarans fit that bill. Long hulls on a smaller bridge deck cabin, a simple but strong build and a small rig. Like the stealths, they usually have pretty decent interior volume for what they are.

It's a shame I can't find it, but I remember a photo of my mates old 43' Oram sandwiched between 2 40' condos in a marina. It looked comically tiny, despite being significantly longer. And of course it was comically faster (than just about everything). That thing could run rings around my Mumby in everything other than heavy seas.

I remember a fun race up the inside of Moreton Island between the Oram, our other mates 43' Crowther and my Mumby. Myself and the Crowther got a head start by hugging the coast and heading straight for the destination, while the Oram had a slow start to get a bit further off shore into stronger wind. We had a solid head start and were pretty powered up by the end. flying the Code D and consistently sitting over 15 knots SOG with a top of 18. However, once that Oram turned onto the wind and got the Code 0 up, it was on! He managed to reel us back in and beat us over the line! And he was single handed. That's the beauty of having a small rig.
Didn't know the oram, that sounds exactly like my cup of tea. 43ft, fast and single handed...i always just count on myself even i have often my girlfriend or crew onboard but you never know and i hate to be dependant on someone.
CaptainRivet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2024, 17:50   #293
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,939
Images: 4
Re: Performance of charter cats?

Well Factor, what cruising cat boat do you recommend? You're in the business right?

HH? One nick in the carbon skin will set you back 6 figures to repair. Plus there are other issues.
Balance? They suffer delam issues but at least the factory is stepping up to repair the issue.
Leopard, FP, Lagoon, Bali, ? Not fast and not we'll built, lack factory support.
Seawind, your brand right? Seem to be nice boats but not especially quick. Low volume builder.
Cris White? Lovely boats that have a history. Very low volume build.
Outremer? Nice boats, fairly well made but their share of issues too, good speed.
Marsaudon? Bankrupt and questionable build quality also known to not make it across the finish line.
A bespoke tin boat like a Mumby or older Gunboat? Bring your check book.

The thing is the general public doesn't have many good options when it comes to buying a good quality cat for a reasonable price.

The "performance" cats aren't really that quick, despite the hype. They don't seem durable enough for full time sailing and live aboard life style, construction is thin glass or carbon over foam. My opinion.

The new production cats seem to have manufacturing issues and if your spending upwards of a $800,000 for a new 45' cat it shouldn't really have problems. Sit down with Travel Sketch for a little while.

This is what we hear when getting together at the cruisers barbecue or on each other's boats. Besides regular talk we also talk about our boats, what we like and what we don't like. We talk about repairs or factory support or good contractors or good yards. We talk about passage times, or how the days sail went.

Maybe you think it's magnanimous to spend time with each other? I think that's an odd comment.
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2024, 20:11   #294
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 4,291
Re: Performance of charter cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Well Factor, what cruising cat boat do you recommend? You're in the business right?

HH? One nick in the carbon skin will set you back 6 figures to repair. Plus there are other issues.
Balance? They suffer delam issues but at least the factory is stepping up to repair the issue.
Leopard, FP, Lagoon, Bali, ? Not fast and not we'll built, lack factory support.
Seawind, your brand right? Seem to be nice boats but not especially quick. Low volume builder.
Cris White? Lovely boats that have a history. Very low volume build.
Outremer? Nice boats, fairly well made but their share of issues too, good speed.
Marsaudon? Bankrupt and questionable build quality also known to not make it across the finish line.
A bespoke tin boat like a Mumby or older Gunboat? Bring your check book.

The thing is the general public doesn't have many good options when it comes to buying a good quality cat for a reasonable price.

The "performance" cats aren't really that quick, despite the hype. They don't seem durable enough for full time sailing and live aboard life style, construction is thin glass or carbon over foam. My opinion.

The new production cats seem to have manufacturing issues and if your spending upwards of a $800,000 for a new 45' cat it shouldn't really have problems. Sit down with Travel Sketch for a little while.

This is what we hear when getting together at the cruisers barbecue or on each other's boats. Besides regular talk we also talk about our boats, what we like and what we don't like. We talk about repairs or factory support or good contractors or good yards. We talk about passage times, or how the days sail went.

Maybe you think it's magnanimous to spend time with each other? I think that's an odd comment.
In short there is no perfect boat....
But well recent 10 years overall didn't do well to boating and cats in general.

A lot are not so bad and even the Lagoons, FPs and Leopards circumnavigate and owners have fun doing it.
Yes the volume manufacturer want as much beds and living space on the given berth space, sails are deco and the engines should be as cheap as possible means even the upgrade engine doesn't get you of the dock if the wind comes from beam with more then 20kn...

So yes no wunder you have to go to low volume niche manufacturers to get different...but different means in 90% tons of money, carbon, kevlar aka HH, balance &Co. Which simply only a few can afford.
But eg nearly nobody takes the gems of the last 20 years and modernize them but keeps there core. Take a Low tech old school performance cat, nobody takes an danson outremer 45 or 50 and modernize it a bit.
Start with a Lagoon 440 that sails exexptionally well for a Lagoon condo due to several factors and acutally not to many mods are needed to take it to a siginficant better level.
in the FP lineup Lavezzi and Bahia are the performers, not top but better then the rest...modernize the design but keep their core features.
You don't have to re-invent the wheel, take proven success recepies, finetune and make better from factory what owner have modded and optimised well over 10 or 20 years.
What gets optimised today is where can i cut costs, where can i glue instead of laminate, can i leave one layer laminate away to safe costs, how high can i lift up a boom to fit a flybridge or make even more room inside, how can i bring a new nav electronics every 4 years and force the owners to upgrade (raymarine got master in that)...
CaptainRivet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2024, 22:18   #295
Registered User
 
fxykty's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: SE Asia, for now
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 4,164
Re: Performance of charter cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainRivet View Post

But eg nearly nobody takes the gems of the last 20 years and modernize them but keeps there core. Take a Low tech old school performance cat, nobody takes an danson outremer 45 or 50 and modernize it a bit. ...
Nearly nobody is us. Our 2003 Danson 55L has fully synthetic rig (and still the same old school double diamond aluminium mast, since if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it), large LFP bank, electric galley, carbon sails, etc. Every repair and upgrade is analysed for optimising seaworthiness, safety and liveability. Relatively speaking, boats like ours are cheap. And if we bash the hulls against rocks or a concrete wall: grind, glass and paint, job done.
fxykty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2024, 02:06   #296
Registered User
 
JustMurph's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Brisbane/Norway
Boat: Mumby 48
Posts: 347
Re: Performance of charter cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
A bespoke tin boat like a Mumby or older Gunboat? Bring your check book.
Two designs that no one has ever put in the same sentence when talking about cost! The Mumbys are cheap to build. Around 600k AUD. 800k max if you went fancy on the systems and fit out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
The "performance" cats aren't really that quick, despite the hype. They don't seem durable enough for full time sailing and live aboard life style, construction is thin glass or carbon over foam. My opinion.
That generalisation just really isn't true. The entire coast line of Australia is packed with cruisers in their Schionnings/Orams/Graingers/Spirited/Hill/Stealth/Mumby/Crowther/Danson outremer etc... and they all hold together quite well.

Like any class of boat, choose a good builder and you'll get a durable and reliable boat.
JustMurph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2024, 03:35   #297
Moderator

Join Date: May 2014
Boat: Shuttleworth Advantage
Posts: 2,800
Images: 3
Re: Performance of charter cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Nearly nobody is us. Our 2003 Danson 55L has fully synthetic rig (and still the same old school double diamond aluminium mast, since if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it), large LFP bank, electric galley, carbon sails, etc. Every repair and upgrade is analysed for optimising seaworthiness, safety and liveability. Relatively speaking, boats like ours are cheap. And if we bash the hulls against rocks or a concrete wall: grind, glass and paint, job done.

One more here. We commissioned ours 25 years ago (a quarter of a century) 1999. Like you it has been constantly upgraded and modified to suit new and emerging needs. Synthetic rigging, new engines, numerous sets of high/low tech sails. LFP batteries, etc etc. We already owned a cat but before deciding on a replacement we chartered, delivered, begged rides and generally made pests of ourselves on 40 plus multihulls in 1990's, learning a bit from every one, mainly what we didn't like. There is no perfect boat and sure there are few things we would still like to change, 8.5m beam is a challenge and our light weight makes marinas difficult. A few years ago facing a refit we looked at replacing the old girl. Nothing really came close at any price (obviously we are bias) but cats have moved away from being sailing machines, we can still hold our own against the latest new and improved designs, our above water structure was wind tunnel tested for heavens sake, a far cry from the wind resisting shed like bridge deck cabins "performance" cats sport nowadays. I have long forgotten how much she cost and how much is still being spent but overall I would agree it has been relatively cheap. To cap it off we just received a glowing out of water survey report. Choosing the right designer and being intimate with the build process is key IMO, not easy or even possible with a production boat.
Tupaia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2024, 05:03   #298
Registered User
 
udyy's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Boat: Knysna 500SE
Posts: 48
Images: 1
Re: Performance of charter cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainRivet View Post
If its just for lifting then i like that, especially you can easliy lift just the engine alone. If its then stored on the bridgedeck somehow like eg on the neels trimaran then i would be fine.
I actually thought of having built an extension (which i can take off) on the boom of my Lavezzi to easily haul the engine of the dingy.
The 4 stroke 15 or 20hp weight >50kg with fluids...
The Knysna 500 has a dedicated halyard and you do not use the topping lift. Using 2 crews helps stabilise the tender but you can easily lift it with bangies as stabilisers. I have used it for 7 years in calm and not-so-calm seas and never had a problem. I like the simplicity and major weight saving. it also keeps basic seamanship skills. I also like that the tender is laid on fixed arms and it is not hanging and dwindling in high seas. The only flaw was that this halyard was the most used and tended to chafe in the mast top block.
__________________
SV ToyBOX
udyy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2024, 06:33   #299
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2022
Posts: 254
Re: Performance of charter cats?

[QUOTE=Joli;3906990


Balance? They suffer delam issues but at least the factory is stepping up to repair the issue.

.[/QUOTE]

Hi Joli, not sure if you are aware but there are two distinctly different yards that build Balance boats, Nexus in St Francis that builds the 526 and 580 that are 100% Epoxy carbon fiber construction and they produce 4 boats a year, then there is Two Oceans in Cape Town that builds the 482 & 442 which are vinyl ester & some polyester. There are some significant differences even though to the layman they look the same from a distance, both in performance and construction.
Kinkircating is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2024, 08:26   #300
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Lifeaboard
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40
Posts: 4,291
Re: Performance of charter cats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Nearly nobody is us. Our 2003 Danson 55L has fully synthetic rig (and still the same old school double diamond aluminium mast, since if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it), large LFP bank, electric galley, carbon sails, etc. Every repair and upgrade is analysed for optimising seaworthiness, safety and liveability. Relatively speaking, boats like ours are cheap. And if we bash the hulls against rocks or a concrete wall: grind, glass and paint, job done.
I meant new from factory, not retrofitting 20+years old cats.
I done the same with my Lavezzi after a wave slam damage instead selling fixed everything and at the same time fixed all construction and production defects and re-enforced everything, as you cannot get anything close that sails for that price.
The 45 Danson outremer has not enough headroom for me, one of the seldom things you cannot change.
CaptainRivet is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
charter

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Performance 50-55' Cats: Outremer vs Catana vs Swiss Catamaran uslafcid Multihull Sailboats 104 16-07-2016 16:36
Sail performance of 90's FP, Lagoon cats ikold Multihull Sailboats 0 23-11-2012 14:25
Organizing the Cats by Performance Sand crab Multihull Sailboats 68 28-02-2011 14:51
Cats, Weight, Performance and Value Intentional Drifter Multihull Sailboats 23 18-01-2007 10:40

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:22.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.