Performance of charter cats?

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by ozolli

Maybe a Knysna 500SE or a Kinetic KC54 ?

There are a couple more boats built down there in Knysna, the Vision 444 as well as a rocket ship from Current Marine. Then down the road a couple hours from there in South Africa is Nexus where they build the Balance 526 & another yard that builds the St Francis 50 cats in the same town.

Lots of great cats being built in that part of the world.

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

There are a couple more boats built down there in Knysna, the Vision 444 as well as a rocket ship from Current Marine.

I ordered the first CM50 from Current Marine, construction starting now

[Johan Leopard51]

Originally Posted by ozolli

I remember a Swiss friends couple met one Knysna 500SE in Nosy Be, Madagascar, at the end of September. Must but the same guys.

Our French couple said they left Knysna October. Great vessel, great owners. The type you hope to meet again when you meet briefly.

How common is it that tender lifts off a boom extension?

Either way a sharp roughly 50 foot cat with 160 sail and only 14 tonne is going to leave 90/% other cats many miles behind

Weight is only your friend in very very very bad seas?

[HUFFnPUFF]

We have two e-bikes, a Huka, wingboard, kite board, paddle board, one spare 6hp motor, one spare 50 lb anchor with 50 ft of chain, sewing machine, tools, spare parts, two inverters (120 and 240), two genmaxx alternators that weight 4 times the original alternators, the original alernators, 5 400 watt solar array, 5 MPPT chargers to match, 7 walk on solar panels with 2 mppt chargers to match, emergency food for 4 weeks for 3 people, two LARGE dogs, 3 ac units, dishwasher, washing machine, 2 tvs... lol yup she sits low.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

I think it is because the quick ones are still relatively rare. For every 200 charter cats you see there is maybe 1 performance catamaran.

Certainly the vast majority are production boats but we've passed boats like the Balance 52 along with a whole lotta of other multi's. I think the Neel trimarans are pretty slippery, they seem quicker then the cats. We've sailed upwind from the Chesapeake to the Caribbean in 8 days against 25 to 55 AWS so we're fairly quick as a mono cruising boat. These are just our general observations from the past five years of sailing the East Coast, Bermuda and Caribbean. At the end of the day we all meet in St Lucia or Dominica or wherever and have a cocktail or dinner together regardless of the boat we sail. As I said the cats certainly win the life aboard award and if they get somewhere faster or slower it doesn't matter. If we were buying a cat it would probably be a more cruisy version and not the performance type. I think the "performance" hype is oversold and very expensive. Buy waterline if yoiu want to go faster.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51

Weight is only your friend in very very very bad seas?

not only. in gusty conditions, i have been very happy to be heavy. These sneaky 40 kn gusts out of nowhere can ruin your weekend for sure.

Upwind, i found most usable performance in light winds. Our Lagoon 400 does 3 kn VMG upwind in 10 kn true. That is really useful quite often. In 20 kn or more one sails for comfort not for speed as seas do not allow comfortable and aggresive ride .

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by Joli

Certainly the vast majority are production boats but we've passed boats like the Balance 52 along with a whole lotta of other multi's. I think the Neel trimarans are pretty slippery, they seem quicker then the cats. We've sailed upwind from the Chesapeake to the Caribbean in 8 days against 25 to 55 AWS so we're fairly quick as a mono cruising boat. These are just our general observations from the past five years of sailing the East Coast, Bermuda and Caribbean. At the end of the day we all meet in St Lucia or Dominica or wherever and have a cocktail or dinner together regardless of the boat we sail. As I said the cats certainly win the life aboard award and if they get somewhere faster or slower it doesn't matter. If we were buying a cat it would probably be a more cruisy version and not the performance type. I think the "performance" hype is oversold and very expensive. Buy waterline if yoiu want to go faster.

Absolutely agree, buy/sail whatever you like and the hell with what anyone else thinks! The sunsets are all the same regardless of how fast you got there or how much you spent.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by ozolli

So do you find them quick ? I mean the new ones, not the Danson.

Do you see some Schionning, ORC, Dazcat, Oram, Lerouge or Looping for example ? These ones are quick

Why not the Danson Outremers? They were the production standard for performance cruising cats in the 90s and still do really well.

Their big differences with modern performance cats, using our O55L and a new O55 as comparisons:
1) more rocker in the hull and much less volume aft, so slower top speeds due to no planing lift, but correspondingly less drag at lower speeds (photos of our O55L stern vs a recent 55 - note that our loaded waterline is flush with the bottom of the hull at the sterns, while the new 55 is most of the way up the rear vertical, note the underwater light placement). We happily sit on 10-12 knots and slow down to 8-9 knots for comfort in confused seas. Our top speed is 25 knots but we rarely see anything above 15 knots other than on big surfs. Fast enough for us.
2) 50% less loaded displacement means less accomodation and only 3750kg capacity over light ship. That is sufficient for us as a couple, but may not be for others. Same for the older interior styling, no vertical glass anywhere (other than the cockpit bulkhead), and narrower passageways (plenty wide enough in rough seas, but you do need to duck through some of the bulkhead doors).
3) 30% smaller rig as we are more easily driven. We do suffer in very light winds and extra sails are needed to overcome that (screecher for reaching and C65 for upwind in less than 10 knots TWS). Being easily driven means we can reef down very earlier and have plenty of gust resilience - a recent passage with 100* TWA 20 knots TWS had us double reefed main and self-tacking jib and averaging 10 knots boat speed in confused 2-3m seas. With that sail plan we could withstand a 45 knot gust without having to turn or ease sheets.
- 50% smaller engines and fuel capacity due to more easily driven hulls and lighter displacement.
- solid fibreglass hulls and no carbon anywhere. Low tech so two full-length stiffeners on each hull and big voids in the main and aft beams (new boats have lockers and generators and water makers and interior accomodations in the beams).

[fxykty]

One of the things that gets misunderstood regarding performance cruising cats is the idea that it’s about top speeds. I think that’s the wrong way to think about it - IMO it’s the sailing ability of a performance cruising cat that is the primary benefit. That superior sailing ability can be used to go faster, but it can also be used to sail in marginal conditions (really light winds, really strong winds, awful sea conditions) where other types of boats cannot sail due to hydrodynamic and aerodynamic drag. Gliding along at wind speed in 3 knots of wind is supremely satisfying

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Why not the Danson Outremers? They were the production standard for performance cruising cats in the 90s and still do really well.

Sorry, it's a bad wording from me. To me the Danson are good performance cats, not the new ones which are too heavy.

[Jeannius]

Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51

How common is it that tender lifts off a boom extension?

Voyage cats are the only other one I know. Don't know if they still do it but the old 440 and 480 both used that system. Personally, I'm not a big fan of hanging several hundred lbs of dinghy off my topping-lift.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Jeannius

Voyage cats are the only other one I know. Don't know if they still do it but the old 440 and 480 both used that system. Personally, I'm not a big fan of hanging several hundred lbs of dinghy off my topping-lift.

If its just for lifting then i like that, especially you can easliy lift just the engine alone. If its then stored on the bridgedeck somehow like eg on the neels trimaran then i would be fine.
I actually thought of having built an extension (which i can take off) on the boom of my Lavezzi to easily haul the engine of the dingy.
The 4 stroke 15 or 20hp weight >50kg with fluids...

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by fxykty

One of the things that gets misunderstood regarding performance cruising cats is the idea that it’s about top speeds. I think that’s the wrong way to think about it - IMO it’s the sailing ability of a performance cruising cat that is the primary benefit. That superior sailing ability can be used to go faster, but it can also be used to sail in marginal conditions (really light winds, really strong winds, awful sea conditions) where other types of boats cannot sail due to hydrodynamic and aerodynamic drag. Gliding along at wind speed in 3 knots of wind is supremely satisfying

Thats exactly the correct way to see it and the reason i wanna upgrade to a real performance cat...and i have already a light FP Lavezzi that sails quite well in light wind due to low windage, 90sqm sail area and fully loaded 8.5t on a 40ft.

But yes why there is no low tech performance cat, give me 45/48ft hulls with bridedeck/deckhouse of a 38ft and alu mast with performance rigg of a 44 with proper tuning possibilities. More or less a bit modernized verson of the dansons outremer 45 with a hardtop. Just combine whats there, no re-inventing of the wheel needed, just put it differently together.
Foam core with vinylester resin. No expensive carbon/kevlar. Yes the looping 45 goes a bit in that dieection but its interior is a bit to spartan and DIY looking.
Just need waterline length but don't need that huge salons that all of them offer and cost tons of money and weight that need to be reduce by expensive kevlar carbon stuff.
Or the ORC42 bulid in foam+vinylester resin and where it doesn't matter polyester instead carbon.
The only one that goes in that direction is asian catamarans with their stealth series.

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Or the ORC42 bulid in foam+vinylester resin instead carbon.

One of my friends, boatbuilder in La Rochelle, bought back the ORC42 moulds
from Grand Large to make some. If you want to contact him send me a PM.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Joli

Certainly the vast majority are production boats but we've passed boats like the Balance 52

Balance is hardly a high performance boat despite what Phil BErman will say.

I think the Neel trimarans are pretty slippery, they seem quicker then the cats

. Sailed a Neil, be my absolute last choice for a performance or indeed any multi. Really uninspiring

At the end of the day we all meet in St Lucia or Dominica or wherever and have a cocktail or dinner together regardless of the boat we sail.

How very magnanimous of you.

Buy waterline if yoiu want to go faster.

Yes we can agree on that. Far less important on a good multi than a mono but longer is always better