Performance of charter cats?

[Joli]

Over the past five years of cruising, having sailed about 25,000 miles from the Great Lakes, the East Coast, Bermuda, and Caribbean. We haven't really seen many multi's that were especially quick, either the production or the performance cats. They do however win the living space award!

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by Joli

Over the past five years of cruising, having sailed about 25,000 miles from the Great Lakes, the East Coast, Bermuda, and Caribbean. We haven't really seen many multi's that were especially quick, either the production or the performance cats. They do however win the living space award!

I think it is because the quick ones are still relatively rare. For every 200 charter cats you see there is maybe 1 performance catamaran.

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

I think it is because the quick ones are still relatively rare. For every 200 charter cats you see there is maybe 1 performance catamaran.

What do you consider performance cats? We see lots of Outremer cats in the Caribbean. Far more than 1:200 more like 1:20

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

What do you consider performance cats? We see lots of Outremer cats in the Caribbean. Far more than 1:200 more like 1:20

So do you find them quick ? I mean the new ones, not the Danson.

Do you see some Schionning, ORC, Dazcat, Oram, Lerouge or Looping for example ? These ones are quick

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by ozolli

So do you find them quick ? I mean the new ones, not the Danson.

Do you see some Schionning, ORC, Dazcat, Oram, Lerouge or Looping for example ? These ones are quick

From my experience of catamarans, very few are quick once they become liveaboard boats doing long passages. The high volume of a cat is attractive for its space but often begs to be filled with toys, tools, spares, bunks, bathrooms,etc
Race boats are fast because they are empty. This stands for monohulls and catamarans. No boat with the luxury of a nice interior is especially fast. If you have a fast cat, you likely have a sparten interior and no toys. That isn't to most peoples liking. For this reason, we moved from owning catamarans to a bluewater monohull. We can now carry everything we want onboard and have a fast ocean passagemaker.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

From my experience of catamarans, very few are quick once they become liveaboard boats doing long passages. The high volume of a cat is attractive for its space but often begs to be filled with toys, tools, spares, bunks, bathrooms,etc
Race boats are fast because they are empty. This stands for monohulls and catamarans. No boat with the luxury of a nice interior is especially fast. If you have a fast cat, you likely have a sparten interior and no toys. That isn't to most peoples liking. For this reason, we moved from owning catamarans to a bluewater monohull. We can now carry everything we want onboard and have a fast ocean passagemaker.

On our previous 40’ catamaran we never had any other sailboat pass us. But as you say, we kept her light but we also really appreciate simplicity. The less toys you own the less time spent fixing them.

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

From my experience of catamarans, very few are quick once they become liveaboard boats doing long passages. The high volume of a cat is attractive for its space but often begs to be filled with toys, tools, spares, bunks, bathrooms,etc

Sure. If you don't follow the designed payload you bought the wrong boat for you.
Kind of a Ferrari with a trailer house...

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by smj

On our previous 40’ catamaran we never had any other sailboat pass us. But as you say, we kept her light but we also really appreciate simplicity. The less toys you own the less time spent fixing them.

Well we carry bikes, dive gear, wingfoil board, kite foil boards, kites, paddleboards, 2 sewing machines, etc. All on a 44ft monohull and just did a passage from Antigua to Azores in 15 days. We saved weight by taking no crew. Just me and the Mrs and the dog��

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

What do you consider performance cats? We see lots of Outremer cats in the Caribbean. Far more than 1:200 more like 1:20

I would consider the modern Outremer cats performance oriented, not necessarily super fast, but they are significantly "faster" relatively speaking than any monohull or Lagoon/Leopard/Bali cat out there. For reference Outremer's website say's, they've manufactured 400 cats since inception which are spread around the world. The production cats are well over 20,000 heavily concentrated in the charter capital of the world that is the Caribbean. So maybe not 1/200, but definitely not 1/20 probably closer to 1/80.

My thought is (because I'm the same way!) is that because they stand out amongst the masses so many people perceive they are more common than they actually are.

As far as not especially faster, it is again in perception and what you personally define as "especially". Is that 5%, 10%, 20%? My experience has been they easily are averaging 20% (or greater) faster passage times when comparing apples to apples and they are both sailing not motoring. If you allow motoring of course the gap narrows and if the wind is light, there is just zero argument for a seasoned sailor to say they are not especially faster...but again your and my especially could me two completely different things.

Cheers!

[Johan Leopard51]

Imho the charter business is aimed at easy weather comfort. Ours is a Leopard power cat, but in Sey the charters are mostly sail cats.

Observation 1: casual holiday makers pick destinations for their nice weather, not their wind. Hence the charter companies offer those vessels.
Observation 2: derives from number 1 is that 99% of the charter cats we see are under power not sail. No wind even a fast sail cat is under power.
Observation 3: the practice of bare boat chartering (which I am not fan of seeing how most of them boat) might mean many charter clients are not sailing enthusiasts. A guy that putters around lakes in Europe can relatively easily putter around calm weather tropics in a cat even if (or because) it is a sail cat under low power.

We would NEVER charter ours bare boat in Seychelles. If it was a sail cat, maybe.

As to fast sail cats, we encountered a french couple in November that had collected their new sailing cat in Knysna (South Africa) in October. Knysna and Seychelles are FAR apart so doing that in 5-6 weeks with only two onboard is impressive. It is MUCH lighter (I think he said 14t light boat) than the usual sailing cats of around 50 foot. I’ll look for name but she looked fast even on anchor. I’m biased but the South African designers punch way above their weight class.

We love sailing but Seychelles has little wind in the nice seasons and in the not-nice seasons you do not want to be caught in the open.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Well we carry bikes, dive gear, wingfoil board, kite foil boards, kites, paddleboards, 2 sewing machines, etc. All on a 44ft monohull and just did a passage from Antigua to Azores in 15 days. We saved weight by taking no crew. Just me and the Mrs and the dog��

I would love to own a monohull as my pocketbook would be much heavier than owning a cat! But I can’t handle the motion.
We carry lightweight folding bikes but none of the other toys as my arthritis won’t allow it. We did have a small 15 lb dog as crew!

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51

As to fast sail cats, we encountered a french couple in November that had collected their new sailing cat in Knysna (South Africa) in October. Knysna and Seychelles are FAR apart so doing that in 5-6 weeks with only two onboard is impressive. It is MUCH lighter (I think he said 14t light boat) than the usual sailing cats of around 50 foot. I’ll look for name but she looked fast even on anchor. I’m biased but the South African designers punch way above their weight class.

Maybe a Knysna 500SE or a Kinetic KC54 ?

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

I would consider the modern Outremer cats performance oriented, not necessarily super fast, but they are significantly "faster" relatively speaking than any monohull or Lagoon/Leopard/Bali cat out there. For reference Outremer's website say's, they've manufactured 400 cats since inception which are spread around the world. The production cats are well over 20,000 heavily concentrated in the charter capital of the world that is the Caribbean. So maybe not 1/200, but definitely not 1/20 probably closer to 1/80.

My thought is (because I'm the same way!) is that because they stand out amongst the masses so many people perceive they are more common than they actually are.

As far as not especially faster, it is again in perception and what you personally define as "especially". Is that 5%, 10%, 20%? My experience has been they easily are averaging 20% (or greater) faster passage times when comparing apples to apples and they are both sailing not motoring. If you allow motoring of course the gap narrows and if the wind is light, there is just zero argument for a seasoned sailor to say they are not especially faster...but again your and my especially could me two completely different things.

Cheers!

We nearly bought an outremer before decideing to go with a monohull. That's why i asked what your idea of a fast cat was. I don't disagree with you but we were mainly based in Antigua this winter and I think we could have seen a disproportionate number of Outremer cats. We were mainly in a single bay kite surfing and wingfoiling. The speed orientated cat sailors may well have made up a nuber of the kiters and foilers, also a speed orientated pass time

[Johan Leopard51]

Originally Posted by ozolli

Maybe a Knysna 500SE or a Kinetic KC54 ?

yes I think one of those two. If it helps, something I noticed is that instead of davit it had a system where a rail extends from boom for lifting tender. Then once lifted you hang the tender - which seemed odd.

She was absolutely beautiful - being a month old obviously helps. Tonnage stunned me, so possibly the Kinetic?

If it was the 500SE not KC54 it rated very high in sailing cats in a review by virtue of sail area and tonnage. The review showed key metrics of a bunch of cats and the 500SE beam and tonnage made the old sail cats look positively slow and obese. This proud couple is clearly very well sorted being abled to do THAT crossing in THAT ocean in that amount of time. They also reported virtually no problems in what must amount to the absolute extensive sea trial. That coast breaks ore tankers when it gets steamy.

Me, I would prefer a sailing cat in a geography that habitually gets decent wind (say 15) in the afternoon for 4h when most people onboard are dopey and I need to get somewhere. Night sailing 20 knot winds in 3000m ocean is not what my family signed up for, at any SOG.

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51

yes I think one of those two.

I remember a Swiss friends couple met one Knysna 500SE in Nosy Be, Madagascar, at the end of September. Must but the same guys.