Performance catamarans to consider at 400k or below

[thuss]

After owning 3 monohulls (38-50ft), I'm ready to make the switch to a multihull. I'm in the market for a more performance oriented cat on the smaller side (38-45 feet) and 400k or less. The two I've found so far are the Outremer 45 and the Catana 431 (or newer 42).

The Outremer seems to be the more performance oriented of the two, but I'm wondering if there are other cats I should consider as well? Also, any feedback/experiences on Catana's or Outremer's would be welcome.

Thanks in advance for your feedback, suggestions, and opinions!

[Chablis 1]

Hello.
Have a look on this performance cat:
https://www.yachting22.com/boats-for.../freydis-43-2/

Thomas

[Tin Tin]

1 Look for Dagger Boards - that will cut out 80 - 90 % of cats for sale
2. Look at Lightship weight - should be between 4T and 6T - that will cut out another 50%
Your short list will now be pretty short. Cut out those that are >$450k
now you may be reduced to a few and they will be >10years old.

Of those few left sort by age
Then look at age of Rig, > 10 years factor in a repalcement set of wires for $20k

Then look to see if it is a custom boat (of unknown build quality) vs factory boat and you will likely end up with a choice of 2 - 5 depending on your location.
After narrowing that down look at cruising lifetsyle requirements - do you want a covered helm, a hard top bimini, do you want a cockpit that has a built in table for 4- 6 people, is the galley up or down, do the beds look easy to get in and out of, is the shower a wet head, do you want 2 bathrooms or more, is it powered by diesels or outboards - there are plusses and minuses for both - good luck.


PS that Freydis noted in post 2 looks pretty good.

[ozolli]

Look at this one :
https://yachtsalesco.com/boats/pre-o...2017-mumby-48/
A bit bigger than what you're looking for but there won't be two like this one for a long time.

[barnakiel]

Negative.


Outremer is no longer on the performance edge. They took a hard cruising trurn.


And Catana's today are cruising-cruising designs. Bloated with furniture, systems and toys.


Today, to get some performance, you get a Marsaudon.


Like this : https://www.katamarans.com/marsaudon-composites-ts5/


Marsaudon. Now I think called ORC (?)


And then maybe an Outremer. And then lastly Catana.


But, as said, Outremer is no longer performance, and Catana has not been for years.


b.

[donradcliffe]

If you buy a real performance cat, it takes quite a bit more seamanship to keep the boat right side up. If you have not already sailed a cat, borrow a Hobie 16 and sail it on SF Bay in a breeze before you make your choice.

[thuss]

That Freydis looks interesting, thanks for the link, I'll reach out to get more info. The Marsaudon and Mumby are out of my price range unfortunately.

My goal is simply the better end of performance cruising cats within my budget. For example the older Outremer 45s (2000-2008) are light displacement at 7300kg even by today's performance cruising cat standards, small interiors (not a condo cat), daggerboards, and respectable performance on and off the wind. The Catana 431 is less so but I still think of it as on the performance side of cruising cats being medium displacement (8000kg) with daggerboards.

I really appreciate the feedback and time people have taken to respond so far!

[ozolli]

The Freydis range is very good. Nicely done.
I know very well Philippe Tournier, the boss at Soubise Plaisance, now Tournier Marine.
He is still making boats at more than 80 years old.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

1 Look for Dagger Boards - that will cut out 80 - 90 % of cats for sale
2. Look at Lightship weight - should be between 4T and 6T - that will cut out another 50%
Your short list will now be pretty short. Cut out those that are >$450k
now you may be reduced to a few and they will be >10years old.

Of those few left sort by age
Then look at age of Rig, > 10 years factor in a repalcement set of wires for $20k

Then look to see if it is a custom boat (of unknown build quality) vs factory boat and you will likely end up with a choice of 2 - 5 depending on your location.
After narrowing that down look at cruising lifetsyle requirements - do you want a covered helm, a hard top bimini, do you want a cockpit that has a built in table for 4- 6 people, is the galley up or down, do the beds look easy to get in and out of, is the shower a wet head, do you want 2 bathrooms or more, is it powered by diesels or outboards - there are plusses and minuses for both - good luck.


PS that Freydis noted in post 2 looks pretty good.

Which one have 4 till 6t? Please give me lists thar fits that and is below 400k

Chamberlain 14, Lerouge, shoonings, TRT1200CR, dolphin 430/460, catana 42 or 411, 431 or 471/2
The only that makes the 4-6t know is Asia catamaran stealth 12 or 13 but won't be 400k. Otherwise the 48ft Mumbay in alu but again nope for 400k.
44ft 6 till 8t is ok.
The best selection seem to be in aussi or asia, Europe beside catana and old outremer not much, US better.

400k there are not many that won't require another 100k repairs or upgrade in the next 2 years.
If you ok with very homemade interior or super spartan you maybe get there. Be aware you will see tons of lemons and wannabe....my buddy looked for almost 3 years now and we check dozens...and his budget was 500k but not super spartan racer.
Old outremers are for max 180cm people...

The catana 431 is top but hard to find a good one as only 90 where produced, I checked out the 3 for him that are worth after prechecks.
The 431 by German owner in Valencia is sold now. Was a good one but another 50k in repairs over next 2 years. The one if France, stay away structural issues plus owner is super greedy and nosy...should have costed 450k now after many tild him below 350 he is trying now 370...not more the 300 but a lot projects waiting...
And 3rd one in US my buddy just signed contract today, survey in 2nd part of January. Cleanest one a d really a gem, new engines and lighter interior as the usual darker wood. Costs about 5k in total to inspect and do all the checks on all 3, travel costs etc add up.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by thuss

That Freydis looks interesting, thanks for the link, I'll reach out to get more info. The Marsaudon and Mumby are out of my price range unfortunately.

My goal is simply the better end of performance cruising cats within my budget. For example the older Outremer 45s (2000-2008) are light displacement at 7300kg even by today's performance cruising cat standards, small interiors (not a condo cat), daggerboards, and respectable performance on and off the wind. The Catana 431 is less so but I still think of it as on the performance side of cruising cats being medium displacement (8000kg) with daggerboards.

I really appreciate the feedback and time people have taken to respond so far!

The older catana are real performance as not many options (they are state of the art at that time) . so eg all is included in the lightweight while on a lot others there is easily 1t more in options. You need to really sail your target one and that's the real issue as most a rare and not many avaliable to testsail or some who takes you out for a day.
Suggest really sail some performance cats, so you can compare what you get and want.
eg a masordon, that's like sailing on epo the whole time, even depowered a medium gust brings you back to race mode and one mistake and it gets really expenaive in best case...love it AND tS 42 was on my shortlist till a TS5 owner took.me out for 3 days with one champagne 15kn and the other 30kn...for 5 hours I loved it but 30kn all hands on deck, ok with a 4 person crew of experienced cat sailors but not with 2 or 3 for a 10 days crossing.
The 431 I could do single handed.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by ozolli

Look at this one :
https://yachtsalesco.com/boats/pre-o...2017-mumby-48/
A bit bigger than what you're looking for but there won't be two like this one for a long time.

Originally Posted by thuss

The Marsaudon and Mumby are out of my price range unfortunately.

The Mumby is USD400k. Definitely a step up in size from what you're chasing, but what I will say (as a Mumby owner), they're pretty easy to single hand, fast and a very very comfortable boat. I was originally looking at cats in the low 40' range, but no regrets with where I ended up.

All of that said, there are some great performance cats in the low 40s in Australia and NZ. That's where I'd be looking if I were you. Crowthers, Graingers, Orams, some Schionnings (avoid the balsa core boats).

[JustMurph]

Sub 44', I think you want to be 7.5t or less to really be a performance cat....

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/200...maran-9319370/
https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/200...-f-41-9458390/ https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/200...on-40-9399298/

[thuss]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

The Mumby is USD400k. Definitely a step up in size from what you're chasing, but what I will say (as a Mumby owner), they're pretty easy to single hand, fast and a very very comfortable boat.

Thanks for the info! The Mumby is indeed an intriguing boat for the price. Looks like it is pretty light displacement, I love aluminum (owned an aluminum monohull), and it has dagger boards. What are your cruising speeds like when sailing on and off the wind? Any other things to consider (pros or cons) with regards to the Mumby?

[JustMurph]

I'm pretty sure that one was originally Tim Mumby's own boat.

Lightship is listed at 7200kg. Fully loaded as a liveaboard I'm around 10t.
Speeds, let me give you some numbers from the last few months with some fresh paint on the bottom.
- Hard upwind in 15 knots, she'll sit on around 9 knots @~32º AWA. Tacking through around 100º
- Can pinch up to around 28º AWA, but VMG drops off
- Reaching in 15 with working sails, she'll be somewhere between 10 and 11.
- Down wind with the asymetric up, we'll do around 10 in 12 knots
- In light winds, just under wind speed
- Top speed, 19.4 knots with the code D up in ~21, flat water, 115º TWA, 62º AWA.

Keep it light and you'll see it push into the low teens more easily than mine does.

Pros: Really stiff and strong, nice open saloon, very airy, quiet and cool (the interior insulation does wonders), fast, very sea worthy, very simple and pragmatic, easy to maintain, hold a really high resale value.
Cons: You need to learn how aluminium needs to be treated different to FG (but sounds like you're already experienced there). So galvanic corrosion with dissimilar metals, a fully isolated electrical system and cleanliness (particularly in bilges). It's not a fancy boat. Those wanting a marina queen should look elsewhere.

If you want to know more, feel free to pop in to the Mumby 48 Owners group on FB to ask question.

Oh yeah, one note. They sell fast if priced sensibly. I'd say that one is about right in the current market, given the age and condition (looks really good).

[Factor]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

I'm pretty sure that one was originally Tim Mumby's own boat.
--------

Oh yeah, one note. They sell fast if priced sensibly. I'd say that one is about right in the current market, given the age and condition (looks really good).

I agree - looks like TRIM. I agree on the pricing comments - if it was in Australia Id be interested but given its in South Africa there is at least 5% duty and GST of 10 to be paid, The GST might be avoidable if it was tims boat and can be proven to be have been built in Australia (at Montes if I remember correctly. )