Perfect ? Ideal ? Visionary ? all rounder - catamaran

[Adam T]

Thank you very much for opinion.

As you know the “triangle” - cheap will not be fast nor spacious, fast will not be comfortable nor cheap, once condo won’t be fast, cheap and... beauty

9 metres cheap will have no standing headroom
10 fast will have no standing headroom in saloon - or once have it - loose her proportions of estetic ...
11 is minimal for CE A ..

[valhalla360]

Honestly, I think you will have a tough time selling a "cruising" catamaran without stand up headroom unless you go for the weekender market where it's marginal to call it a cruising boat...something like the stiletto cats. Rocket fast but not a viable ocean crosser.

Heavenly twins did a production cruiser without standing headroom in this size range but it's not a speed demon and it never took off with big sales.

Of course, there are the wharram cats but most of those are owner built and really come across as focused on cost rather than speed.

Might be worth talking to some brokers and dealers to get their thoughts. It's easy for people on a forum to say they would love it when they would never actually buy one (and for you purposes, it's important to distinguish that people who buy used boats aren't buying from you).

[CatNewBee]

Well, that's an easy one.

Just ask the cat owners, what they have been looking for and why they chose what they boght in regards of design, size, performance etc. This people not just intent to invest, they actually did it with their own money.

That sorts out people with a dedication from dreamers.

You can easily find out, what the market is looking for by looking at offer and demand reflected in prices on the used market too. You see 5 yo cats selling around prices of new boats for some brands and sizes, what tells you what people really want and are prepared to invest.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Well, that's an easy one.

Just ask the cat owners, what they have been looking for and why they chose what they boght in regards of design, size, performance etc. This people not just intent to invest, they actually did it with their own money.

That sorts out people with a dedication from dreamers.

You can easily find out, what the market is looking for by looking at offer and demand reflected in prices on the used market too. You see 5 yo cats selling around prices of new boats for some brands and sizes, what tells you what people really want and are prepared to invest.

But it's critical to separate new boat buyers from used boat buyers as they often have different needs and desires....and more importantly different size wallets.

That's where talking to a salesman can give you a better feel. They deal with lots of buyers and they have a good idea on the difference between people who do a lot of talking and people who actually buy. If they don't think they can sell it...it probably will be hard to sell.

[riki]

Originally Posted by Adam T

Thank you very much for opinion.

As you know the “triangle” - cheap will not be fast nor spacious, fast will not be comfortable nor cheap, once condo won’t be fast, cheap and... beauty

9 metres cheap will have no standing headroom
10 fast will have no standing headroom in saloon - or once have it - loose her proportions of estetic ...
11 is minimal for CE A ..

Maybe the 9m option could be a bit "tight", but 10mt, looking at the Maldives as an example, could offer everything, just adopting smart solutions as an opening roof: and that would give all the headroom needed. As new/modern options only the ladyhawk 33 offer something similarin that size (no pop off roof thought) and imho it's a very nice boat, 1,85cm headroom in main salon and heard that it's quite fast for the size. So seems possible.

[CatNewBee]

You may look at FP Maldives (32ft), FP Tobago (35ft), FP Mahe evolution for a small cat (36ft / 11m) or an FP Athena (38ft)

They are really tiny and very lightweight for cruising. You need a certain size for safety offshore.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/201...ution-3463804/

[boatman61]

Makes you wonder how Prouts, Catalacs, Bobcats, Iroquois and Heavenly Twins managed to leave the UK let alone go on to cruise the Med, Transat and unbelievably even circumnavigate.. hell one even set the record for being the first Catamaran to pass the Horn back in the 70's.
Its not the Cat.. Its the person sailing it that sets the limits.

[CatNewBee]

Some cross Atlantic in a rowing boat. Not necessary comfy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ7CLisM2KA

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Makes you wonder how Prouts, Catalacs, Bobcats, Iroquois and Heavenly Twins managed to leave the UK let alone go on to cruise the Med, Transat and unbelievably even circumnavigate.. hell one even set the record for being the first Catamaran to pass the Horn back in the 70's.
Its not the Cat.. Its the person sailing it that sets the limits.

But do any of those meet the OP's idea of a "fast" boat.

They will keep up with most similar size monos and in some conditions blow them away if you keep them light but if you are expecting reliable double digit speeds...not going to happen outside rare magical sails where the stars align.

Plus with the possible exception of the HT, it sounds like he would consider them in the condomaran category.

If you move up to a 45' cat, you can cut the accommodations back to the equivalent of a 35' cat, which will allow you to keep the weight down and use skinny fast hulls while still giving a reasonably comfortable standing headroom...by the time you get down to 25-35', something has to give.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Honestly, I think you will have a tough time selling a "cruising" catamaran without stand up headroom unless you go for the weekender market where it's marginal to call it a cruising boat...something like the stiletto cats. Rocket fast but not a viable ocean crosser.

Val is right on this aspect. People want standing headroom on a cruiser. There was a pretty cool 42' Newick cat for sale for years here in the US. It was a cruiser of sorts but no standing room in the cockpit, I'm not sure about the hulls. It finally sold after being listed for 95 months at 68% of asking price. I'm sure it was fast though!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

But do any of those meet the OP's idea of a "fast" boat.

They will keep up with most similar size monos and in some conditions blow them away if you keep them light but if you are expecting reliable double digit speeds...not going to happen outside rare magical sails where the stars align.

Plus with the possible exception of the HT, it sounds like he would consider them in the condomaran category.

I don't think you could call the Iroquois Mk 1 & 2 Condomarans.. they were pretty nippy.. and they blow away the Heavenly Snail..
Catnewbe.. Comfort is relative to the individual.. it all boils down to the market one wishes to cater for.. I bet more VW Campervans were built and sold than Winnebagos.. there boats for the old and and boats for the young and bold..

[smj]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Some cross Atlantic in a rowing boat. Not necessary comfy.

In one post you state seaworthy in another comfy, usually they have nothing in common.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]I don't think you could call the Iroquois Mk 1 & 2 Condomarans.. they were pretty nippy.. and they blow away the Heavenly Snail..

My bad, I'll give you the Iroquois is a bit sportier...when did they give up on building them?

By contrast, the Gemini has been in production since the mid-80's and still sells strong. Its one of the rare brands that hasn't shifted to bigger and more condo like designs over the years.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Catnewbe.. Comfort is relative to the individual.. it all boils down to the market one wishes to cater for.. I bet more VW Campervans were built and sold than Winnebagos.. there boats for the old and and boats for the young and bold..

True, but the young and bold usually go for project monos on a very tight budget. This ensures most sailing fun, enough room to snuggle in the cave down below and large storage capacities for canned food, like beer.

The monos compare more to the VW campervan lifestyle than a multihull, the multihulls are for people with a "slide-out and tow-cars behind"- lifestyle (dinghy davits, 2 hulls, broad bridgedeck).

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I bet more VW Campervans were built and sold than Winnebagos.. there boats for the old and and boats for the young and bold..

If you are going brand vs brand, maybe. I couldn't find brand specific sales numbers but from 2017 numbers...

Conventional (Type A) 23,343
Van Campers (Type B) 5,249
Mini (Type C) 34,046

Type A - A full house built by the RV manufacturer on a bare chassis.
Type B - A van with the interior fitted out for camping (VW campervans are a subset)
Type C - The front cockpit of a van with the rest of the house built by the manufacturer

Winnebagos come in Type A or Type C configurations.

It's not even close and when camping, we see very few campervans, so it's not a new phenomenon.

Percentages shift in Europe but even there, Type C is by far the most common.