Owner Built Boats and Builders

[owly]

This forum seems focused almost entirely on factory boats.... aside from the Searunner sub forum. I personally have no interest in ANY of the factory built boats. I'm focused on cats, though I flirted with tris for awhile. The greater space and payload possible per length, and the possibility of a sheltered warm safe watch station in the bridge deck cabin, make the cat a no-brainer for me. Performance is NOT one of my priorities, but seems overwhelmingly important to many people. There are no factory built boats I'm aware of that remotely fill my bill, and that has me looking at home building. I don't want a 40,45,or 50 foot monster. The closer I can keep things to 30', while fulfilling my payload paramters and desired design parameters, which include abundant bridge deck clearance, netting or tramps forward, and beam in the 18' plus range, the better. When payload numbers are published on factory boats, they are laughable! Half a ton??? for a 40 foot boat.... come on. If you even make the most rudimentary effort to run the numbers, this comes out a coastal day sailor. Most manufacturers are too embarrassed to even publish the numbers. I don't want an overweight GRP pig. I don't care about standing headroom. I definitely do not want vast expanses of windows. The design I'm looking at, I will be forced to build myself, and to get what I consider a reasonable payload for voyaging and live aboard (permanent), will result in blending two designs, and building in foam sandwich.... which is OK with the designer. I really don't want to build.....it's a major undertaking.



Why is there no sub forum for builders, and/or owner built designs. There is basically no discussion of these topics. There are plenty of excellent designs out there. Plywood Epoxy is probably superior to most commercially made sold GRP or Cored boats, and a well crafted owner built foam sandwich boat is probably second to none. When it's your life on the line, it stands to reason that you will do a good job.... unless you are a fool...... The days of Arthur Piver are long gone.



H.W.

[boatman61]

It'll be a strange looking cat.. 30ft with an 18ft beam..
50% beam to length ratio works best.
Look at modifing one of the Wharram designs.
Stitch and glue ply, glass, epoxy.. simple yet strong flexible beam set up.. with a bit of imagination and skills its possible to create what you want.
Theres lazy ugly and theres thoughtful aerodynamic options one can make re bridgedeck pods/cabins.
EG the Tiki 38 has a load capacity of 2000kg.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by owly

This forum seems focused almost entirely on factory boats.... aside from the Searunner sub forum. I personally have no interest in ANY of the factory built boats. I'm focused on cats, though I flirted with tris for awhile. The greater space and payload possible per length, and the possibility of a sheltered warm safe watch station in the bridge deck cabin, make the cat a no-brainer for me. Performance is NOT one of my priorities, but seems overwhelmingly important to many people. There are no factory built boats I'm aware of that remotely fill my bill, and that has me looking at home building. I don't want a 40,45,or 50 foot monster. The closer I can keep things to 30', while fulfilling my payload paramters and desired design parameters, which include abundant bridge deck clearance, netting or tramps forward, and beam in the 18' plus range, the better. When payload numbers are published on factory boats, they are laughable! Half a ton??? for a 40 foot boat.... come on. If you even make the most rudimentary effort to run the numbers, this comes out a coastal day sailor. Most manufacturers are too embarrassed to even publish the numbers. I don't want an overweight GRP pig. I don't care about standing headroom. I definitely do not want vast expanses of windows. The design I'm looking at, I will be forced to build myself, and to get what I consider a reasonable payload for voyaging and live aboard (permanent), will result in blending two designs, and building in foam sandwich.... which is OK with the designer. I really don't want to build.....it's a major undertaking.



Why is there no sub forum for builders, and/or owner built designs. There is basically no discussion of these topics. There are plenty of excellent designs out there. Plywood Epoxy is probably superior to most commercially made sold GRP or Cored boats, and a well crafted owner built foam sandwich boat is probably second to none. When it's your life on the line, it stands to reason that you will do a good job.... unless you are a fool...... The days of Arthur Piver are long gone.



H.W.

These are the two most important words in your post. Sadly so many owner built boats don't quite meet this description.

[Sand crab]

Boatdesign forum would be a good place for you to try. But if you do build then everyone here is always interested in build pics.
You might want to check out the Maine Cat 30 or Seawind 1000. They are really cool but will cost about $120,000 or so.

[Lepke]

I don't think people here would mind a sub-forum for home built boats, but few home built boats ever get to the cruising stage. And I believe that is the main focus here.


And there are many types of fools that try to build boats long before they have the skill. A long time ago, I was one.

[owly]

Originally Posted by boatman61

It'll be a strange looking cat.. 30ft with an 18ft beam..
50% beam to length ratio works best.
Look at modifing one of the Wharram designs.
Stitch and glue ply, glass, epoxy.. simple yet strong flexible beam set up.. with a bit of imagination and skills its possible to create what you want.
Theres lazy ugly and theres thoughtful aerodynamic options one can make re bridgedeck pods/cabins.
EG the Tiki 38 has a load capacity of 2000kg.

Not strange at all...... Look at Richard Woods designs, or Bernd Kohler.... 38 feet is considerably larger than I really want. Note that the Tiki 38 is 21 foot beam. The Wharram designs are cramped internally...... I've looked at them and the 38 is the minimum that would give reasonable inside space in the hull IMHO. There are far better designs out there. James Wharram made symmetrical deep V hulls (double enders), and they are known for hobbyhorsing... a dated design. Newer designs make aft displacement greater than forward displacement to reduce this problem considerably. The TIKI 38 puts you well below the bridge deck compared to newer designs where the side cabins are integrated with the bridge deck.... In the cabin the bridge deck is a couple feet above the work surface in the galley, which means that it cannot extend out onto the bridge deck as on newer designs, greatly reducing work space. The lashed crossbeams are excellent in many ways, but they eliminates the possibility of incorporating a bridge deck cabin with the lower cabins, as everything flexes separately. They really are fine for the tropics, but in cold climates, and storm conditions the separation is a nuisance.

There are numerous reasons for foam sandwich construction. I'm a believer in plywood construction, but there is considerable weight reduction possible with foam sandwich, there is the insulation factor, and the sound deadening, and the fact that there is nothing to rot. It can also be built without stringers, which to me are just places to catch dirt and mold. The Seawind 32 is 19'5" beam, the Simpson 31 is 18'4" beam.......The Kohler KD 860 (28' loa) has an 18'3" beam, The Woods Sagitta is 30' loa with a 19'6" beam.........beamy is in, for good reason. Richard Woods Sagitta at only 30' LOA has a payload of 1980 lbs.... for all intents and purposes a ton....... Bernd Kohler's KD 860 at only 28' LOA has a payload of 2640 lbs.



H.W.

[owly]

Originally Posted by Lepke

I don't think people here would mind a sub-forum for home built boats, but few home built boats ever get to the cruising stage. And I believe that is the main focus here.


And there are many types of fools that try to build boats long before they have the skill. A long time ago, I was one.

I'm currently preparing to build my 4th boat..............


H.W.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

These are the two most important words in your post. Sadly so many owner built boats don't quite meet this description.

I'd suggest that an even lower proportion of production boats do. They might look pretty, but choice of materials and standards of actual construction often dont match the glossy finishes.

[44'cruisingcat]

It's been quiet lately, but this forum has lots of good info for owner builders:

https://diy-yachts.com/forum/

[owly]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

It's been quiet lately, but this forum has lots of good info for owner builders:

https://diy-yachts.com/forum/

Thanks for the link.... I believe you are correct that owner builders often do a better job than manufacturers. In particular where cored hulls are concerned, the procedures used in a female mold are not even remotely close in terms of adhesion to what can be achieved in a one off build....... gel coat, followed by fabric, followed by foam with bonding paste, and no way to ensure consistent even pressure....... they are working on a blind surface, the home builder isn't. One only has to read surveyor reports. The other thing is that most epoxy ply or cored homebuilts use epoxy, and they aren't working "on the clock".



H.W.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by owly

Not strange at all...... Look at Richard Woods designs, or Bernd Kohler.... 38 feet is considerably larger than I really want. Note that the Tiki 38 is 21 foot beam. The Wharram designs are cramped internally...... I've looked at them and the 38 is the minimum that would give reasonable inside space in the hull IMHO. There are far better designs out there. James Wharram made symmetrical deep V hulls (double enders), and they are known for hobbyhorsing... a dated design. Newer designs make aft displacement greater than forward displacement to reduce this problem considerably. The TIKI 38 puts you well below the bridge deck compared to newer designs where the side cabins are integrated with the bridge deck.... In the cabin the bridge deck is a couple feet above the work surface in the galley, which means that it cannot extend out onto the bridge deck as on newer designs, greatly reducing work space. The lashed crossbeams are excellent in many ways, but they eliminates the possibility of incorporating a bridge deck cabin with the lower cabins, as everything flexes separately. They really are fine for the tropics, but in cold climates, and storm conditions the separation is a nuisance.

There are numerous reasons for foam sandwich construction. I'm a believer in plywood construction, but there is considerable weight reduction possible with foam sandwich, there is the insulation factor, and the sound deadening, and the fact that there is nothing to rot. It can also be built without stringers, which to me are just places to catch dirt and mold. The Seawind 32 is 19'5" beam, the Simpson 31 is 18'4" beam.......The Kohler KD 860 (28' loa) has an 18'3" beam, The Woods Sagitta is 30' loa with a 19'6" beam.........beamy is in, for good reason. Richard Woods Sagitta at only 30' LOA has a payload of 1980 lbs.... for all intents and purposes a ton....... Bernd Kohler's KD 860 at only 28' LOA has a payload of 2640 lbs.



H.W.

Calculate the beam to the centre of the V hull and get back to me..

[owly]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Calculate the beam to the centre of the V hull and get back to me..

Come now!! We were not talking about beam to the center of the hulls, and you known it. Let's not play games here. I don't see any reason to continue this line. This is argument for it's own sake, and I'm not interested in playing that game with you.



H.W.

[GordMay]

The CF has numerous “Social Groups”:
➥ Cruisers & Sailing Forums - All Groups

Which cater to specific interests, including:
Roger Simpson Design Multihulls - Owners and Builders of Simpson Catamarans.
➥ Cruisers & Sailing Forums - Roger Simpson Design Multihulls

You could start a new group, “DIY Boat Builders” (or some such):
Here ➥ http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/group.php?do=create

[Redreuben]

Builders give the market what it wants, few owners come through the door asking for the best resin, the best fabric and top line sails.
They want berths, enclosed heads, showers and air con.
In short European quality for a Chinese price.
Builders actually love customers who want a quality build AND are prepared to pay for it. Because it gives them a chance to show their skills.
Doesn’t happen very often.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by owly

Come now!! We were not talking about beam to the center of the hulls, and you known it. Let's not play games here. I don't see any reason to continue this line. This is argument for it's own sake, and I'm not interested in playing that game with you.



H.W.

I'm not playing a game.. theres a different set of mechanics (for immediate want of a better word) between a keeless V hull that relies on the hull for directional stability and a U hull which relies on a lump bolted on the bottom which increases weight and reduces payload.. not to mention draft Tiki 0.75,m.. Lagoon 380 1.15m.
On the Lagoons U the waterline runs near level to the decks beam width.. with the V hull its considerably inside the overall beam width by comparison.. you may not think this makes a difference but I do..
Also hobby horsing is largely down to poor loading/storage balance.. balance the load properly and it decreases significantly.
We will now return to conventional thinking..