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Old 29-11-2018, 16:00   #1441
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Just to clarify. 8.5knots was the SOG and the speed transducer (new) had not been calibrated. while it was close to high tide the 8.5knots may have indeed been tide assisted. I should have turned 180 and checked speed in the opposite direction.

Latest sea trial we only achieved 7.9knots average in all four compass directions.

The Leopard facebook group advise that WOT with clean hulls closer to 9.5 knots.

We tested impact of motoring on one engine as opposed to two and the speed dropped to 6.8knots average. We then tested regeneration on the other engine - speed dropped by 0.5knots and regen was 350W to 400W.

Once the riggers are finished with the sail and mast setup we will test regeneration whilst sailing and report back.

No magical thinking - just the empirical results
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Old 29-11-2018, 18:37   #1442
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by svReality View Post
....We tested impact of motoring on one engine as opposed to two and the speed dropped to 6.8knots average. We then tested regeneration on the other engine - speed dropped by 0.5knots and regen was 350W to 400W.

...

At long, long, last - some real empirical data on the energy available and the effect on boat speed of re-gen at realistic cruising speeds Thank you.
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Old 30-11-2018, 03:08   #1443
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by svReality View Post
We tested impact of motoring on one engine as opposed to two and the speed dropped to 6.8knots average. We then tested regeneration on the other engine - speed dropped by 0.5knots and regen was 350W to 400W.
To be clear, if you had instead pulled back on the throttle to drop a half knot without enabling regeneration, you would've had a net "gain" of more than 350W to 400W.

Do you know how much more?
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Old 30-11-2018, 03:21   #1444
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

I will try to remember to check how much less power is needed to achieve the 0.5knot slower speed. I expect it will be significant.

Bear in mind that I was simply checking that the regeneration system was functioning and trying to determine what regeneration could be achieved if sailing at 6.5knots and also to see what the drag effect would be (easier to check when motoring as usually hp is less variable than wind power)
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Old 30-11-2018, 14:08   #1445
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

This data seems to make sense. Thanks for posting and please keep making reports. It is very interesting.
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Old 08-12-2018, 11:00   #1446
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

I read this thread with great interest, every page, very entertaining. This post is my first contribution, I hope it's worthy.

The reason electric HP is better than IC HP is not magic, it's largely engineering versus marketing.

Horsepower is a rating. It should be trustworthy, but it's not. Ratings are under constant marketing pressure, and greatly distorted (on both sides, but less so with electric propulsion to date). Electric motors are not yet popular enough with consumers to attract the bending of truth that IC has "enjoyed". Just look to how electric cars are purchased today, not by horsepower.

Rating: Continuous duty - How long can the engine run at max load?

Engine manufacturers are not really selling you horsepower, they are selling you horsepower that you can use only for brief periods of time. Electric motors are more honest about duty rating (at the moment).

Some reading:
MARINE ENGINE DUTY RATINGS
https://www.sbmar.com/articles/conti...t-perspective/

Question: How much horsepower do you think your engine really can output and for how long?


Duty cycle - How often is the engine used at each load?

Drive Engine: How many people run their engine at optimum load while cruising and for what percentage of the time? The engine has to perform at all loads and speeds, so is not efficient at most of them. The best case scenario is a long distance cruiser that hits the throttle right away, runs at optimum load the entire time, and shuts down immediately at the other end, and doesn't ever cruise locally. Is this realistic?

Generator: Properly implemented, running at optimum load greater than 95% (likely more) of the time and designed for it.


Slip/Load - Electric motors respond differently to load than IC, essentially IC engines do not respond well.

Electric: When pushed harder, provides more power and use more energy reasonably efficiently. More importantly, when unloaded they use less energy immediately.

IC: When pushed harder, power drops off, and they consume more fuel/energy inefficiently. When unloaded (however briefly) they still use that fuel/energy, unable to respond to load changes quickly.

Taking it to the extremes, an electric motor at 0 rpm is expending zero energy. An IC engine can't even do this, at idle it's expending (technically) infinitely more energy, but realistically it's expending it's minimum fuel consumption.

An electric motor at max rpm with little load is not using much energy, an IC at the same speed is using quite a bit...



None of this is magic to engineers. In summary: IC engines waste massive quanities of energy in order to provide sizable quantities of energy. Anything that improves the loading of an IC engine can save a LOT of energy, and anything that can avoid it's use altogether saves even more (solar, wind, regen). While the losses of creating DC electricity and then converting to mechanical work are not negligible, they are less than the losses of sub-optimal loading and gearboxes combined.

If you are interested in the math that backs much of this up, have a read:

https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com...ydraulicPumpsM

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...sepower-rating (missing images but still an excellent explanation, and details how mind bogglingly inefficient IC engines are).
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Old 08-12-2018, 14:55   #1447
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Welcome to CF

Quote:
Originally Posted by bridaus View Post
an excellent explanation, and details how mind bogglingly inefficient IC engines are).
Perhaps. but £20 of diesel will get me to France 60 miles away if there is no wind. You can't do that on a battery. Diesel is a cheap, relatively safe fuel available throughout the world. What is not to like?

Pete
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Old 08-12-2018, 15:06   #1448
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by bridaus View Post

Taking it to the extremes, an electric motor at 0 rpm is expending zero energy. An IC engine can't even do this, at idle it's expending (technically) infinitely more energy, but realistically it's expending it's minimum fuel consumption.

An electric motor at max rpm with little load is not using much energy, an IC at the same speed is using quite a bit...



.
Not sure this is true. An electric motor could be recieving huge current at zero rpm.

And also with no load at maximum rpm.
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Old 08-12-2018, 19:17   #1449
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by bridaus View Post
I read this thread with great interest, every page, very entertaining. This post is my first contribution, I hope it's worthy.

The reason electric HP is better than IC HP is not magic, it's largely engineering versus marketing.

Horsepower is a rating. It should be trustworthy, but it's not. Ratings are under constant marketing pressure, and greatly distorted (on both sides, but less so with electric propulsion to date). Electric motors are not yet popular enough with consumers to attract the bending of truth that IC has "enjoyed". Just look to how electric cars are purchased today, not by horsepower.

Rating: Continuous duty - How long can the engine run at max load?

Engine manufacturers are not really selling you horsepower, they are selling you horsepower that you can use only for brief periods of time. Electric motors are more honest about duty rating (at the moment).

Some reading:
MARINE ENGINE DUTY RATINGS
https://www.sbmar.com/articles/conti...t-perspective/

Question: How much horsepower do you think your engine really can output and for how long?


Duty cycle - How often is the engine used at each load?

Drive Engine: How many people run their engine at optimum load while cruising and for what percentage of the time? The engine has to perform at all loads and speeds, so is not efficient at most of them. The best case scenario is a long distance cruiser that hits the throttle right away, runs at optimum load the entire time, and shuts down immediately at the other end, and doesn't ever cruise locally. Is this realistic?

Generator: Properly implemented, running at optimum load greater than 95% (likely more) of the time and designed for it.


Slip/Load - Electric motors respond differently to load than IC, essentially IC engines do not respond well.

Electric: When pushed harder, provides more power and use more energy reasonably efficiently. More importantly, when unloaded they use less energy immediately.

IC: When pushed harder, power drops off, and they consume more fuel/energy inefficiently. When unloaded (however briefly) they still use that fuel/energy, unable to respond to load changes quickly.

Taking it to the extremes, an electric motor at 0 rpm is expending zero energy. An IC engine can't even do this, at idle it's expending (technically) infinitely more energy, but realistically it's expending it's minimum fuel consumption.

An electric motor at max rpm with little load is not using much energy, an IC at the same speed is using quite a bit...



None of this is magic to engineers. In summary: IC engines waste massive quanities of energy in order to provide sizable quantities of energy. Anything that improves the loading of an IC engine can save a LOT of energy, and anything that can avoid it's use altogether saves even more (solar, wind, regen). While the losses of creating DC electricity and then converting to mechanical work are not negligible, they are less than the losses of sub-optimal loading and gearboxes combined.

If you are interested in the math that backs much of this up, have a read:

https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com...ydraulicPumpsM

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...sepower-rating (missing images but still an excellent explanation, and details how mind bogglingly inefficient IC engines are).
Very interesting articles there, thanks for the post.
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Old 08-12-2018, 21:44   #1450
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by bridaus View Post
Drive Engine: How many people run their engine at optimum load while cruising and for what percentage of the time? The engine has to perform at all loads and speeds, so is not efficient at most of them. The best case scenario is a long distance cruiser that hits the throttle right away, runs at optimum load the entire time, and shuts down immediately at the other end, and doesn't ever cruise locally. Is this realistic?
For many cruising boats it is quite realistic. Most of the time your engine is operating in a good efficiency range.

Anchoring or maneuvering in marinas it's not, but that's not much of the time really.

Not sure how local cruising is any different in terms of engine utilization?
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Old 08-12-2018, 22:11   #1451
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Welcome to CF



Perhaps. but £20 of diesel will get me to France 60 miles away if there is no wind. You can't do that on a battery. Diesel is a cheap, relatively safe fuel available throughout the world. What is not to like?

Pete
That is probably literally true, there isn't realistically a single battery that would store that much energy in a single battery, even a Lithium battery. At least I'm not aware of one that would be affordable. But, so what? What a strawman arguement

It certainly isn't true if you have a battery BANK, of several batteries, particularly if it is a LFP bank that is more normal in EP installations where the owner anticipates needing longer range on batteries.

And that owner probably came to his boat with the fuel tank full from solar charging, in which case the fuel tank was topped up for free. And maybe the same on the trip back if it was a couple of sunny days in port across the channel.

And actually there are a few things not to like with a diesel compared to an EP system, like ....oh, never mind.
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Old 08-12-2018, 22:13   #1452
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by bridaus View Post
I read this thread with great interest, every page, very entertaining. This post is my first contribution, I hope it's worthy.

The reason electric HP is better than IC HP is not magic, it's largely engineering versus marketing.

Horsepower is a rating. It should be trustworthy, but it's not. Ratings are under constant marketing pressure, and greatly distorted (on both sides, but less so with electric propulsion to date). Electric motors are not yet popular enough with consumers to attract the bending of truth that IC has "enjoyed". Just look to how electric cars are purchased today, not by horsepower.

Rating: Continuous duty - How long can the engine run at max load?

Engine manufacturers are not really selling you horsepower, they are selling you horsepower that you can use only for brief periods of time. Electric motors are more honest about duty rating (at the moment).

Some reading:
MARINE ENGINE DUTY RATINGS
https://www.sbmar.com/articles/conti...t-perspective/

Question: How much horsepower do you think your engine really can output and for how long?


Duty cycle - How often is the engine used at each load?

Drive Engine: How many people run their engine at optimum load while cruising and for what percentage of the time? The engine has to perform at all loads and speeds, so is not efficient at most of them. The best case scenario is a long distance cruiser that hits the throttle right away, runs at optimum load the entire time, and shuts down immediately at the other end, and doesn't ever cruise locally. Is this realistic?

Generator: Properly implemented, running at optimum load greater than 95% (likely more) of the time and designed for it.


Slip/Load - Electric motors respond differently to load than IC, essentially IC engines do not respond well.

Electric: When pushed harder, provides more power and use more energy reasonably efficiently. More importantly, when unloaded they use less energy immediately.

IC: When pushed harder, power drops off, and they consume more fuel/energy inefficiently. When unloaded (however briefly) they still use that fuel/energy, unable to respond to load changes quickly.

Taking it to the extremes, an electric motor at 0 rpm is expending zero energy. An IC engine can't even do this, at idle it's expending (technically) infinitely more energy, but realistically it's expending it's minimum fuel consumption.

An electric motor at max rpm with little load is not using much energy, an IC at the same speed is using quite a bit...



None of this is magic to engineers. In summary: IC engines waste massive quanities of energy in order to provide sizable quantities of energy. Anything that improves the loading of an IC engine can save a LOT of energy, and anything that can avoid it's use altogether saves even more (solar, wind, regen). While the losses of creating DC electricity and then converting to mechanical work are not negligible, they are less than the losses of sub-optimal loading and gearboxes combined.

If you are interested in the math that backs much of this up, have a read:

https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com...ydraulicPumpsM

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forum...sepower-rating (missing images but still an excellent explanation, and details how mind bogglingly inefficient IC engines are).
Thanks for the contribution, bridaus Good summary and links.
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Old 09-12-2018, 06:02   #1453
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
Welcome to CF

Perhaps. but £20 of diesel will get me to France 60 miles away if there is no wind. You can't do that on a battery. Diesel is a cheap, relatively safe fuel available throughout the world. What is not to like?

Pete
Thanks for the welcome Pete! Don't get me wrong...

Battery Energy Storage versus Diesel Energy Storage is a completely different discussion. Diesel has much more energy density, the sun is not always out, and the wind isn't always blowing. That is a different conversation, for if thousands of miles are in your plan, you have no alternative to sails or diesel (generator or direct drive) at this time. Electric boats expected to go long distances will have diesel generators for a time until something comes along that can provide and store the same amount of energy with a similar weight, volume, cost, and time scale as diesel fuel.

What I'm observing is that Electric HP >> ICE HP (generally by a factor of 2.5, see my links for the math) and that it's not magic.

I'm also making the case that the losses in conversion from mechanical to electric to mechanical are offset by the ability to optimize the load on the ICE. To that end I ask: Of the last 10 engine starts and stops on your boat, what percentage of the time where you operating at the most efficient load for the engine? Honest answers appreciated, do not throw away any starts/stops for testing/maintenance/I was moving slips/babying it/etc., it all counts.
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Old 09-12-2018, 06:37   #1454
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by bridaus View Post
To that end I ask: Of the last 10 engine starts and stops on your boat, what percentage of the time where you operating at the most efficient load for the engine? Honest answers appreciated, do not throw away any starts/stops for testing/maintenance/I was moving slips/babying it/etc., it all counts.
Some of the time. If the optimum load is say 3/4 of full revs that would be about 5.5 knots, so a good cruising speed for going somewhere over a couple of miles. Moving around the marina well quite slow just in case. So 2 out of the last 10 start ups have used 3/4 revs, the rest less have 1/2 revs. I need to move into a marina for power and water for jobs or cleaning which we have been doing quite a bit of during that last couple of months.

I think its worth putting into context that we used 90 litres this year for propulsion and heating (lest not forget that one because we are 50N) so that's about $150. Diesel for many with existing engines is the cost effective solution. If as you say something more efficient comes along that is close to producing a good bang for the buck then I will certainly look at it. What I am not going to do is tear out a perfectly good diesel and replace it with lots of expensive batteries and an electric motor costing ???? and seriously reduce the yachts range.

The EU has decided to get rid of all petrol and diesel cars from about 2040 or at least try to. This may drive technology to produce a better alternative, but I won't be driving and perhaps not sailing then.
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Old 09-12-2018, 06:45   #1455
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
It certainly isn't true if you have a battery BANK, of several batteries, particularly if it is a LFP bank that is more normal in EP installations where the owner anticipates needing longer range on batteries.
There is no chance that an ordinary sized yacht even with LifePO4 could power along for 11 or 12 hours at cruising speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
And actually there are a few things not to like with a diesel compared to an EP system, like ....oh, never mind.
Yes I agree, spilling diesel on the boat or me, the fumes if the wind is from astern etc, but any alternative is going to have to be cost effective if we want wide spread adoption.
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