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Old 24-08-2018, 23:35   #1351
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by Heath68 View Post
Top Gear have often put their "chosen second hand" cars on a rolling road to see how much horsepower they’d lost down the years, the TG site shows results ranging "from 19 per cent to 38 per cent".
How many of them were diesels that spend most of their working life running at constant RPM for hours on end?
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Old 25-08-2018, 06:12   #1352
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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The really big selling marine engines are made by Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Tohatsu etc.
Talk about moving goalposts! So that represents what, a handful of catamarans a year, from cottage builders?

And you’re claiming outboards are designed to run continuously at WoT and last for as many hours as a diesel?

I’m not even going to bother.
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Old 25-08-2018, 07:32   #1353
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Well you can run outboards at WOT continuously. As you've shown, with diesels you can't.
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Old 25-08-2018, 10:41   #1354
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Electric motor + diesel is not more efficient than mechanical + diesel. EP cannot get more power to the propeller for the same duration from a liter of diesel. Until someone proves otherwise in a peer reviewed format i will not accept that it is even possible. Neither should EP proponents. If it were possible almost no one would install mechanical drive trains.

But EP doesn’t need to be more efficient to be desirable. It just needs to be lighter, more reliable and less expensive and it will easily replace mechanical driven transmissions.

But EP is unlikely to ever be more efficient.
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Old 25-08-2018, 11:43   #1355
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

SIDEBAR ALERT

You could argue about this system all day long but here's one nasty little secret about Oceanvolt:

They are completely dishonest and incompetent. Here's the story.

Last fall I was ready to hand over a deposit for an OV system to go into our 44' catamaran. Literally had my checkbook in hand. Bill O'Malley had the entire system designed and laid out for us. Including a generator. We spoke at length with both him and the US CEO Peter Haffenberg about each detail and part in the system right down to the anticipated shipping costs and tariffs.

As luck would have it, we were to meet Peter and Bill to give them the deposit and sign a contract at the boat show">Annapolis Boat Show. We went to their booth and Peter was off to lunch so we said we would be back. As we wandered around we stopped at the Fischer-Panda booth to ask a few questions about the generator spec'd out for our project.

Here's the kicker...THE GENERATOR IS NOT AVAILABLE IN THE US DUE TO EPA REGULATIONS. Nope, not a joke. I just almost handed a hefty check for something I could not get. We went back to the OV booth in total disbelief. Peter and Bill were both there and when I questioned them they had nothing...zero...blank stares. THE US CEO DOESN'T EVEN KNOW HIS OWN PRODUCT CAN'T BE SOLD AS DESIGNED IN THE US!


So despite my outrage and distrust my husband still wants to keep the OV on the table so we start researching other DC generators. Come to find out there is only one large DC generator manufacturer that has EPA approvals. During the design process we actually brought up this manufacturer and both Bill and Peter bad mouthed them and told us that it would be a huge mistake to go with them. I'm sure you can guess what came next. Yeah, about that company we told you not to go with...let's go with them.

Ultimately we walked away. I could not do business with a company where the salesman and CEO (the only two US employees) are either completely incompetent or outright liars. I thank God we dodged not just a bullet but a grenade!
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Old 25-08-2018, 15:11   #1356
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

In fairness, most CEOs have engineers whose job it is to ensure regulatory compliance. I don't think it reflects on the CEO's integrity as much as the knowledge of the engineers who designed the system. No CEO can be expected to know all the regulations in hundreds of countries.

Did you and Bill research FP at all before deciding they had the best generator available?
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Old 25-08-2018, 15:56   #1357
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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In fairness, most CEOs have engineers whose job it is to ensure regulatory compliance. I don't think it reflects on the CEO's integrity as much as the knowledge of the engineers who designed the system. No CEO can be expected to know all the regulations in hundreds of countries.

Did you and Bill research FP at all before deciding they had the best generator available?
For many organizations I would completely agree that a CEO wouldn't be up on every nuance of the entire business model. However, let me put it into perspective. There are only TWO employees in the US division. Sales and CEO. Their only job was to design and sell these systems in the US. Both of them participated in the design of the system. I find it inexcusable that they would have accepted my down payment of tens of thousands of dollars without knowing they could deliver their product. SHADY!!! At what point were they going to break the news to us that a major component of the system couldn't be had. I'm quite sure it would have been after they cashed our check.

Yes we researched DC generators at length. DC generators in the size range we needed are not common. Really it came down to just two well known manufacturers. In fact we brought up the only other reasonable manufacturer (located in California) with OV. They said they had tried to work with them in the past and that they were horrible, unreliable, lacked customer service, failed to deliver their product, on and on. At that point we felt we should follow OV's recommended supplier.

I'm curious to know if they will be back at the boat show again this year trying to sell something they can't deliver.
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Old 25-08-2018, 16:02   #1358
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

That's true that the CEO would have alot on his plate setting up a new company in a new jurisdiction, but he would probably have assumed that someone in Finland would have checked that proposed components had compliance approvals, especially in a major market.

But why would a particular model not have emissions compliance in the US when it does in Europe? Doesn't make sense. Is this part of Scott Pruett EPA/ Trump tariff silliness?

Anybody there in the US know anything about this? Who is the one vendor that has EPA compliance certs?


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Old 25-08-2018, 16:24   #1359
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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That's true that the CEO would have alot on his plate setting up a new company in a new jurisdiction, but he would probably have assumed that someone in Finland would have checked that proposed components had compliance approvals, especially in a major market.

But why would a particular model not have emissions compliance in the US when it does in Europe? Doesn't make sense. Is this part of Scott Pruett EPA/ Trump tariff silliness?

Anybody there in the US know anything about this? Who is the one vendor that has EPA compliance certs?


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As a CEO setting up a new division in the US, knowing I was going to import almost all of the items I was selling, one of my FIRST priorities would have been to insure I covered all the import issues. You can't sell what you don't have...or maybe they thought they could. We are talking about a guy working from home, not a guy setting up a facility. I literally asked the guy staffing the Fischer Panda booth at the boat show about the generator and he knew it wasn't available in the US. I didn't exactly have to contact EPA or customs to get the information.

DC generators are not hot sellers. It costs money to get your product EPA approved. If you are not going to sell very many of them then it makes little sense to invest money in getting the EPA approvals. The other manufacturer is Polar Power. I assume since they are manufacturing here in the US all of their products would have to be EPA approved.

And no it has zero to due with "Scott Pruett EPA/ Trump tariff silliness?"
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Old 26-08-2018, 01:11   #1360
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

In Australia, the distributor of Fischer Panda also was not importing the AGT DC series, for business/economic reasons, not emissions compliance reasons. The reason I know that is I asked the distributor at the Sydney boatshow when I was doing my due diligence on the system.

But there have been several Oceanvolt installs here with various sizes of the FP AGT DC gensets because OV ships ALL the components from Finland. For example the Mc Conaghy Ov installs I believe used the Fischer Panda, as did Noosa Marine for Kato.

FYI, I tried multiple times to contact Polar Power to find out more about their unit, and finally gave up after about a month of unreturned emails and phone calls, so maybe the idea of poor customer service is deserved. US companies are usually excellent at responding so......? It didn't fill me with confidence about post sales support.

I did not want the FP DC genset either, for various reasons, and luckily found a better solution manufactured right here ( in Oz ) to military continuous operation specs. It is a killer genset with an incredible reputation for reliability & efficiency.

So with a bit of persistence, solutions are possible.

The 5 year worldwide warranty is from Oceanvolt, not the equipment manufacturer ( typically 1 year), so why didn't you get the FP genset from OV Finland? Does it have to be ( ie a regulation) supplied by a local vendor in the US?


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Old 26-08-2018, 01:18   #1361
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

I forgot to say, I feel your frustration! Suppliers can drive you crazy with their stuff ups, and on our project we have fabulous suppliers, and really really sub- optimal suppliers. Oceanvolt is definitely in the former category, so far 👍


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Old 26-08-2018, 09:16   #1362
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

BB...so in the US if you want to import something like a generator or let's say a car, that item must pass through customs. On the bill of lading it would list "one FP DC generator blah, blah, blah". It is at this point where the problem occurs.

You can not circumvent the EPA regulations by just shipping that item in from another country. It's interesting that Australian laws allow this.

As far as Polar Power, I had the completely opposite experience. While still considering OV, I went to work with Polar Power. I traded numerous emails and phone calls with a very helpful gentleman named Carlos to get dimensional drawings and performance data on two different models due to space and weight restrictions we were working with.

The final stumbling block was that OV couldn't get me in touch with someone that was actually using their system in a refit application here in the US. You know, proof of concept that you have actually completed a refit here in the US, imported all of the components and that it works. OV US operations had been established almost a year and a half before we started working with them. Surely, Bill O'Malley must have sold at least one system in that time. When asked both Bill O'Malley and Peter Haffenberg got very evasive and uncomfortable, saying "of course we've had sales". Without the proof of concept for those sales I felt they were either trying to rook me out of a large sum of money when they could not complete the project or they were simply incompetent. Neither option would have a positive outcome for our intended time frame and end use.
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Old 26-08-2018, 15:07   #1363
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Yes, completely understand your position and requirement for "show me the solution". As they say, "talk is cheap"!

Did you ever get to the bottom of why that model doesn't have EPA approval when so many of other FP generators do? Really curious about that. Would it really be that FP didn't want to spend the money? FP is a pretty big company.

Re Polar Power, they may have not wanted an export order but they could have told me so, I would have been OK with that. Glad to hear you had better luck.

Very sorry to hear about your experience.


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Old 26-08-2018, 16:04   #1364
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Yes, completely understand your position and requirement for "show me the solution". As they say, "talk is cheap"!

Did you ever get to the bottom of why that model doesn't have EPA approval when so many of other FP generators do? Really curious about that. Would it really be that FP didn't want to spend the money? FP is a pretty big company.

Re Polar Power, they may have not wanted an export order but they could have told me so, I would have been OK with that. Glad to hear you had better luck.

Very sorry to hear about your experience.


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I can't say that I ever really got to the bottom of it so to speak. Once they told us we couldn't get it we moved on.

If I were to guess I would say that from FP's perspective it would take a great deal of ass pain to get the EPA certifications and in the end they might only sell 1 unit a year, if that. Dealing with the EPA or any other governmental organization takes a special kind of endurance. DC generators of this size are not big sellers here in the US. Maybe they are elsewhere. Even Polar Power told me that they don't sell many of them and that it's not something that they usually have ready to ship.

Our experience was pretty disappointing. We were really excited to have the system. I just didn't have the confidence in OV to move forward.

In the end we ended up replacing the two Yanmars with the identical model just newer edition that is a bit more green. We stuck with a robust lithium battery bank (1200 ah) and 550 watts of solar that can be expanded. Also replaced both stock alternators with 250 amp alts. We removed the propane system (except Magma bbq grill with fiberglass tank) and went with all electric cooking. Also ditched the wind gens to reduce noise and vibration.
Our project: SVCaterpillar can be found on facebook. We don't have a ton of stuff there. Eventually we intend on editing the hours of video to post on our website for friends and family.

Our system has all kinds of fail safes that will allow us to operate even if one part of the system fails. Things like each of our batteries has it's own battery management system. Each of our solar (5) panels has it's own controller. We have two 2k inverters. Everything was designed so that we could shut down a part of the system and still operate, albeit at a lower level. It really allows us freedom to wander pretty far off the grid.
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Old 26-08-2018, 20:46   #1365
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

BillsWife,

Sounds like a great re-power & that you have an appreciation of the wisdom of redundancy. Well done

An interesting factoid has come up. There is a very fine boatbuilding company down here called McConaghy. See the website for an indication of the type of quality builder we're talking about, with high level expertise in composites, building techniques and latest technology on all fronts.

https://www.mcconaghyboats.com/

They did a gorgeous 57' mono with Oceanvolt SD15 and they used Polar Power for the DC genset. When it came time for a bit of support from Polar Power on the NEW genset install, they charged McConaghy something like USD$2,500 for the pleasure of asking some questions in a couple of phone calls and emails.

Vendor support ethic? Hmmmm....
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