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Old 26-03-2017, 14:40   #676
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Now we hear some numbers that make a little more sense. Cruises at 7 knots using 2.5l per hour correlates somewhat with 8kW. It's not quite right but believable. So an 11T light cat with no mast can cruise at 7 knots using 8kW which is about all she'll deliver (aka max cruise). With wind and seas against its somewhat less than that. And with regular diesels for $60k less money that same boat ought to be able to cruise at twice that speed with mast up.

It's fine if someone wants diesel/electric for the gee whiz factor. But it seems you will have to pay a lot more and cruise at about 1/2 speed. A similarly capable plain diesel setup geared and propped for 7kt max cruise should be just as efficient and would likely weigh less.
I would wait a little while before coming to conclusions. A passage from Noosa to Mooloolaba demonstrates nothing and they could well have had a 2kn assist current.

I would not be surprised with all things being equal that the boat ends up running at 5kn with 11Kw generator running. I also know Tony has unlimited funds so putting in a larger generator will be nothing to him. I would also think Tony purchased the motors at a steep discount so efficiency arguments are probably moot.

I think we need to wait to see how the boat performs in real world cruising conditions.
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Old 26-03-2017, 14:49   #677
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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I think we need to wait to see how the boat performs in real world cruising conditions.
I wonder if this info will ever be available from a source that has no vested interest in the product?

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Old 26-03-2017, 22:30   #678
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
With two X 15kW Motors, why only an 11kW genset?
Your question presumes you would want to motor indefinitely, or as long as the diesel lasts, at full power or close to it. The ultimate conclusion of this thinking is to have 2x 15kW DC gensets to replace the power used up by the 2x 15kW motors, in real time, assuming no losses.

But the gains of using full power are small (maybe 1 knot), while the power consumption compared to say using 10kW are large, so why bother?

When full power is required for lee shore/tidal current/high wind manouvering etc, the "hour of power" from the batteries is better.

So using 1x DC genset gets you extended motoring in light to moderate conditions.

Make sense?
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Old 26-03-2017, 22:34   #679
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I wonder if this info will ever be available from a source that has no vested interest in the product?

Jim
What makes you think the boat builder has a vested interest in lying about electric motors? Like most builders, he just builds what the client wants, no?
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Old 26-03-2017, 23:30   #680
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Your question presumes you would want to motor indefinitely, or as long as the diesel lasts, at full power or close to it. The ultimate conclusion of this thinking is to have 2x 15kW DC gensets to replace the power used up by the 2x 15kW motors, in real time, assuming no losses.

But the gains of using full power are small (maybe 1 knot), while the power consumption compared to say using 10kW are large, so why bother?

When full power is required for lee shore/tidal current/high wind manouvering etc, the "hour of power" from the batteries is better.

So using 1x DC genset gets you extended motoring in light to moderate conditions.

Make sense?
No, not really. The 10kw genset only allows both motors to be run at 1/3 power for any length of time.

For an "hour of power" which you might want crossing the WBB, you'd need to find an extra 20 kw hours, which would require the equivalent of around 2000 amp hours of batteries (12v).

JMHO, but to me, a 20 kw genset would make more sense.
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Old 27-03-2017, 00:32   #681
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
No, not really. The 10kw genset only allows both motors to be run at 1/3 power for any length of time.

For an "hour of power" which you might want crossing the WBB, you'd need to find an extra 20 kw hours, which would require the equivalent of around 2000 amp hours of batteries (12v).

JMHO, but to me, a 20 kw genset would make more sense.
For crossing the Wide Bay bar on a less than perfect day, how long would you need full power?

Crossed many bars in our dive boat, ( Wooli is a shocker in a NE swell) but not in a multi yet, so I'm assuming you'd need it to punch through any breakers on the way out, and coming back to ride the back of a roller through the break.

Would you need more than an hour of genuine full power?
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Old 27-03-2017, 01:03   #682
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Actually if the results are really that spectacular and it was me I would be keeping it under my hat. I would right now be hiring a 3rd party testing lab, or someone like Nigel Calder to come and test the system as is, and have their report in hand when I went public. Because of exactly the type of suspicion on this thread (warranted or not).

To make claims this impressive demands reports from people beyond reproach, because the claims are so impressive. Secondly if The you are smart they have to realize that the claims are so incredible that they may be misssing something, and need to have a fresh set of eyes look at the system to see what they may be missing.
Not buying the first paragraph. If they really think it's doing that great and that meets their calculations, put the numbers out and follow up with a 3rd party test. I'm sure if it was that great, the magazines would be all over doing tests for free.

The last part about wondering if they missed something does make more sense...of course recent updated posts, drop those "impressive" performance figures drastically while still leaving key questions unanswered. The answers to those questions are likely to further drop the results.
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Old 27-03-2017, 01:14   #683
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Your question presumes you would want to motor indefinitely, or as long as the diesel lasts, at full power or close to it. The ultimate conclusion of this thinking is to have 2x 15kW DC gensets to replace the power used up by the 2x 15kW motors, in real time, assuming no losses.

But the gains of using full power are small (maybe 1 knot), while the power consumption compared to say using 10kW are large, so why bother?

When full power is required for lee shore/tidal current/high wind manouvering etc, the "hour of power" from the batteries is better.

So using 1x DC genset gets you extended motoring in light to moderate conditions.

Make sense?
No not really.

When talking about top speed, HP is HP. When an equivilent diesel powered boat would have at least 50hp (more likely 75-100hp), the presumption is to get similar performance, you are going to run those little electric motors at 80-100% of max power on a regular basis.

Now if you are just going to use the motors to get in and out of port, that can work with the small generator but so would a pair of 20hp diesels and with only a 15-20minutes of run time to get in and out of port the annual fuel consumption is negligible, so it's unclear what the purpose is.

The reason to provide generator backup is you want to motor for an extended period of time.

Update: This smacks of the standard a failure of the electric motor enthusiast - We'll tell the customer how much performance they need, regardless of what the customer wants. Then they wonder why a technology that has had upwards of 30yrs in boats keeps failing.
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Old 27-03-2017, 01:28   #684
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
What makes you think the boat builder has a vested interest in lying about electric motors? Like most builders, he just builds what the client wants, no?
What business wants to be associated with a failed product? Word gets around and pretty soon new builds are going to other builders.
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Old 27-03-2017, 02:05   #685
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
For crossing the Wide Bay bar on a less than perfect day, how long would you need full power?

Crossed many bars in our dive boat, ( Wooli is a shocker in a NE swell) but not in a multi yet, so I'm assuming you'd need it to punch through any breakers on the way out, and coming back to ride the back of a roller through the break.

Would you need more than an hour of genuine full power?
Probably not more than an hour, but possibly close to it. The main reason WBB has its reputation is because you spend so bloody long crossing it. It's not like most bar crossings, where you can pick a break in the waves and go for it. It goes for miles.
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Old 27-03-2017, 02:36   #686
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
What business wants to be associated with a failed product? Word gets around and pretty soon new builds are going to other builders.
Oh man, you really are reaching for straws, aren't you? So I guess all those builders who put in blue death Volvo's tarnished their reputations and lost lots of future clients then did they?

What utter nonsense

If professional boatbuilders did put in products that turned out to be substandard, they would just change to something better once becoming aware of the issue.

Again, pay attention this time, this particular vendor has not had any systems "ripped out" and replaced with something else. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary that contradicts my due diligence, I'm all ears.

And, again, OV have about 200 systems installed. Where are the legions of dissatisfied customers, Valhalla?
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Old 27-03-2017, 02:48   #687
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
What business wants to be associated with a failed product? Word gets around and pretty soon new builds are going to other builders.
Noosa Marine the boat builder will not be affected in anyway. He builds custom boats to the specs of the owner.

Tony Longhurst the owner will simply change any system that is not keeping him happy. He can afford to.

Tony Longhurst is the person who needs to be happy with the system.
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Old 27-03-2017, 03:53   #688
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Oh man, you really are reaching for straws, aren't you? So I guess all those builders who put in blue death Volvo's tarnished their reputations and lost lots of future clients then did they?

What utter nonsense

If professional boatbuilders did put in products that turned out to be substandard, they would just change to something better once becoming aware of the issue.

Again, pay attention this time, this particular vendor has not had any systems "ripped out" and replaced with something else. If anyone has any evidence to the contrary that contradicts my due diligence, I'm all ears.

And, again, OV have about 200 systems installed. Where are the legions of dissatisfied customers, Valhalla?
Considering a Legion is a bit over 5000, I think they need to sell a few more before they can have legions (plural) denouncing them. At the current sales rate (assuming they don't go bankrupt first), they should hit their first legion somewhere around the year 2250.

Reality is, it's far too embarrassing to have paid drastically higher prices for a system with drastically lower capability and then admit you were a fool who didn't believe that basic physics still applies, so no you are unlikely to hear buyers admit their foolishness. Expect them to quietly get converted back to diesel. Couple that with some people who are willing to accept the major downsides in the name of the eco-cause and it easily explains the current situation.

But there is no doubt putting out lemons looks bad for a builder. They may build to a customers demands but unless the builder has a vested interest (ie: the situation currently being discussed), they will keep it quiet about those projects, so the reasonable assumption is they do have a vested interest.
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Old 27-03-2017, 13:39   #689
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

I am loathed to way-in to this debate as it seems to have almost religious fervour on both sides but I'd like to try and propose something.

Any conversation over the success of a system has to be based on the users set of requirements. Trying to argue about a system that doesn't meet your set of requirements or fails in one area that you find important doesn't help if that user doesn't consider that particular point valid or relevant.

If you imagine the requirements of the owner were:
I want a generator on board as I want my electrical toys and perhaps some A/C but 11Kw should be enough.
Because of all the electrical toys, give me as many ways to charge up as you can, solar and hydro as well as the generator.
Try to make the boat as silent as possible as I like my peace and the pleasure of sailing.
Keep it light, so no over-engineering, as this is still primarily a fast boat.

When you accept that the boat needs the generator, the solar, a half-decent battery bank (obviously more when you go electric engines) the choice to add the electric engines seems to fit that user's requirements. Would it fit a different boat or a different user's requirements, no, definitely not.

Making the generator 20Kw would increase your motoring ability but would probably add weight & noise (although you might be able to get away with a slightly smaller battery bank to offset some of the weight). I might still go with 20Kw myself but I can understand that he might have spec'd his maximum power needs for other than propulsion and decided this was all he needed.

Going with 75hp diesel engines like some on an Outremer 5X would enable you to go a lot faster under power but would be noisier, add weight, and not provide hydro (but would give you charging ability through the alternators which is probably less important with a generator).

Going with 20hp diesel engines is still noisier than the electric, doesn't provide hydro, and (if we ignore the batteries for a moment) is a lot heavier than the electric engines especially if you add a saildrive.

And who knows, perhaps he just wants to sneak in and out of Smuggler's Cove at night and get away with the booty with no-one the wiser. Without knowing what he wanted from the system we can't really judge.
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Old 27-03-2017, 18:24   #690
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

[QUOTE=GaryJones;2357599]

Any conversation over the success of a system has to be based on the users set of requirements. Trying to argue about a system that doesn't meet your set of requirements or fails in one area that you find important doesn't help if that user doesn't consider that particular point valid or relevant.

/QUOTE]

What on earth does Tony Longhurst, the owner, know what he wants. A punter who spent his life in the motor sports arena. He certsinly doesn't bring a lifetime of sailing experience to the table. Just vast quantities of money.

44C is right about the WBB. You certainly don't want to loiter any longer than necessary when bashing into a stiff headwind, the swell, and pushing the incoming tide.
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