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Old 17-11-2016, 07:39   #346
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I will give credit where credit is due.
- He is very innovative at capturing tax breaks.
- He is very innovative at fooling people into investing.

I've yet to see any evidence he has been to Mars or taking over NASA. (didn't aliens blow up one of his rockets recently?)
Losing money year after year is hardly beating the top car manufacturers at their own game.

Again, the EP Cruising Boat proponents are about hope and dreams and I'm planning to buy one some day in the future and then I'll show you.

Again, start throwing some verifiable numbers out and prove us wrong.
Am I right in guessing that you are over 70 years old? Just curious here...
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Old 17-11-2016, 07:46   #347
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

And yet Tesla shares have gone up five times in five years and companies like jaguar and Mercedes say they want to complete with Tesla are planning to roll out their own electric cars in the next few years. Jaguar say it wants 50% of its cars to be electric by 2020. Then there is SpaceX and the hyperloop.

Elon Musk's companies may or may not be successful in the longer term but they are certainly bringing advances in many areas. Many investors know the risks and are prepared to risk part of their portfolio on companies like Tesla that maybe the next Apple or Microsoft.

Governments sees the advantages of innovations and that is why they offer tax breaks to encourage it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I will give credit where credit is due.
- He is very innovative at capturing tax breaks.
- He is very innovative at fooling people into investing.

I've yet to see any evidence he has been to Mars or taking over NASA. (didn't aliens blow up one of his rockets recently?)
Losing money year after year is hardly beating the top car manufacturers at their own game.

Again, the EP Cruising Boat proponents are about hope and dreams and I'm planning to buy one some day in the future and then I'll show you.

Again, start throwing some verifiable numbers out and prove us wrong.
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Old 17-11-2016, 08:12   #348
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

And since valhalla360 has to have numbers for everything to understand it.

I will add some #'s to keep him entertained.

Tesla cars and Power Walls use 18650 batteries from Panasonic
18mm dia x 650mm long.

Tesla's new battery Gigafactory is already producing the 18650 batteries, but will also make a newer larger more powerful 21700 battery (21mmdia. x 700mm long) for the new more affordable Tesla model 3 and the Powerwalls.

18650 batteries have long been a standard.

Since Tesla announced that they will be making the new larger more powerful 21700 batteries, every major battery maker is announcing that they will also be making the new 21700 batteries.

Tesla is cutting a new trail and a lot of very large companies are getting on that trail behind Tesla.
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Old 17-11-2016, 08:14   #349
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

And yet we have someone here who doesn't think Musk is innovative! I'm beginning to think he is just a troll.
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Old 17-11-2016, 08:20   #350
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by SDChristian View Post
And yet we have someone here who doesn't think Musk is innovative! I'm beginning to think he is just a troll.
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Old 17-11-2016, 11:38   #351
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by SDChristian View Post
Am I right in guessing that you are over 70 years old? Just curious here...
So you are suggesting old farts can see thru a line of BS? (still waiting to see the pictures of musk on mars since apparently he already did it)

But no not even close.
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Old 17-11-2016, 11:42   #352
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
And since valhalla360 has to have numbers for everything to understand it.

I will add some #'s to keep him entertained.

Tesla cars and Power Walls use 18650 batteries from Panasonic
18mm dia x 650mm long.

Tesla's new battery Gigafactory is already producing the 18650 batteries, but will also make a newer larger more powerful 21700 battery (21mmdia. x 700mm long) for the new more affordable Tesla model 3 and the Powerwalls.

18650 batteries have long been a standard.

Since Tesla announced that they will be making the new larger more powerful 21700 batteries, every major battery maker is announcing that they will also be making the new 21700 batteries.

Tesla is cutting a new trail and a lot of very large companies are getting on that trail behind Tesla.
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How is producing a standard battery...innovative?

I suppose next you'll tell us his use of round wheels is an innovation.

I give up, next year at the boat show, we'll see 95% electric power boats and 5% diesel just to satisfy the "non-believers."
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Old 17-11-2016, 11:46   #353
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by John Holbrook View Post
And yet Tesla shares have gone up five times in five years
Mr. Ponzi was very innovative also by that standard, which is technically true. Not sure I would consider that kind of innovation a positive.

So far the extent of Mr. Musk's innovation is a slight change in the standard size of a battery. Wow, electric propulsion on cruising boats is a sure thing.
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Old 17-11-2016, 13:06   #354
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen View Post
Boy you really have selective reading - I said it was a garbage video and provided an explanation. You're just not integrating any information that contradicts your viewpoint.

Electric motors develop peak torque at near 0 rpm - functionally instantaneous. Diesel engines need to get up to the right rpm. The video is garbage because it shows you the first 4 seconds from a standstill start - if you had any sort of connection remaining to this reality, you'll recognize that had they shown the video a mere 30 seconds later the diesel will be tugging the electric boat, then an hour later the electric boat will have zero propulsion remaining.

anyway - enjoy your fantasy. I truly hope battery technology matures to the point where this EP fantasy can come true. Unfortunately real world experience and real data (as opposed to cherry picked fantasy material) suggests otherwise.

I'm waiting for Yanmar to come out of a fictional fuel tank that carries 200 liters of diesel in 5 liter volume.

Anyway - I'm realizing that this isn't really educational and is more like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig. Have a good one. Unsub.
Trying to portray me as a zealot/evangelical/irrational/out of touch with reality type, suits your purpose, but it does not reflect who I am. Iasked that question in all seriousness because I want to know. I'm about to make an investment in relatively new technology, and I'm a bit cautious. OK? I have no other agenda than that.

Now as to your explanation, this has been discussed before, and I researched the actual events that were filmed. The film was not fudged in any way. The charter company was not conspiring with OceanVolt, they just wanted to validate for themself that the seemed to be able to push the electric boat into wind better than previously with the diesel boat. That is my major interest in this, by the way.

Both boats were warmed up, so the diesel was ready to go to max throttle. There was so jockeying to get the boats into position and there was a bit of "drift" in the direction of the electric, but both boats started in neutral and then on go, both went full throttle.

How long would it take a Yanmar 30 to get to max torque? Are you saying it would be 30 seconds?


So overnight I realised a fairer test would be to have the diesel towing the electric at full torque, and then the electric goes to WOT, and then see what happens. If the electric slows the diesel down and eventually stops it, and then the direction of pull reverses, that will be definitive.

Do you agree?
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Old 17-11-2016, 13:15   #355
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
1) I seriously doubt the "charter company" was neutral or they wouldn't be involved.
2) If you watch the video both boats were already moving in the direction of the electric boat meaning the diesel has to overcome both the electric drive and upwards of 20ton of boats moving in the opposite direction.
3) HP = torque * RMP. With electric producing max torque at zero RPM, the instantaneous HP from a standstill will be greater. This further exaggerates item 2 because while the prop on the electric boat is biting into clean water, the diesel has significant slippage because it is moving backwards.
4) The throttle lever may be wide open but because it's not moving forward, it might not be able to get up into it's power band like it would under normal conditions. Try it some time, if you tie the boat off to the dock and open her up, the diesel will typically be well below peak RPM.
5) They don't tell us what props were used. A large diameter low pitch prop on the electric boat vs a standard prop on the diesel would be like putting a 40hp tractor against a 400hp Ferrari. The Ferrari easily has more HP but the low gearing of the tractor will win every time in a tug-o-war.
6) As you said, a tug-o-war is irrelevant to the typical cruiser. Electric motors can do some things better. For acceleration, you can use a motor "rated" for lower HP, which to a degree is what the tug-o-war is showing. At cruising speed, HP is HP. It doesn't matter what the source is.

I could come up with more issues but I'm sure you will shoot it down as speculation. This is a perfect example of EP marketers giving partial information to give a false impression. They make claims and show a video supposedly supporting those claims but then they intentionally leave out a lot of key information.

Tesla does the same thing putting out videos of drag races. Electric motors are great for drag racing but do a 50 mile race around a track and you get totally different results because the test isn't optimized for electric motors.
Excellent! Thanks Valhalla, and I mean that. Good analysis that is actually helpful.

As I proposed to SVDestiny, it would be "fairer" to have the diesel going first & up to max torque, and see if the electric would then be able to stop it. Right?
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Old 17-11-2016, 13:21   #356
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by dlymn View Post
But,but, but, the incresed force on the sails is a product of increased drag from the generator. the increased pressure is identical to the force required to overcome the drag and propel the boat at 7knots. You are implying that the increased pressure might be available to increase boat speed. Not so.
Could you please use a bit more scientific language, so that I don't have to guess what you mean.
1) The increase of the aerodynamic force on the sails is a result of drag form the generator. If you meant that you are correct on that.
The total pressure on the sails times sail area is the force on the sails. If going directly downwind that is also the driving force, otherwise not.

2) The driving force equals the sum of the drag of the hull & appendages at 7 knots and the drag from the water generator. The increase of the driving force equals the drag from the water generator minus the decrease of the hull drag.
Therefore the claim :"the increased pressure is identical to the force required to overcome the drag and propel the boat at 7knots" is incorrect.

3) The increase from the propulsive power from the air due to increase of apparent wind do allow increase of the average speed of the boat in the same trip under same truewind conditions compared to otherwise identical boat in identical conditions not using the watergenerator to store energy.
That does not mean that the instantaneous speed would ever be increased by the generator and I have not implyed it would mean that.
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Old 17-11-2016, 13:28   #357
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
So does the driveleg on a standard Oceanvolt SD15 rotate, or will it be worth nothing in its planned primary purpose on that Vende Globe Open 60?
I don't know, but I assume it does not rotate. The driveleg of the Gunboat Moonwave do rotate, and the company that made it belongs now to the Torqeedo brand.
It depends on what the primary purpose is?
It does provide propulsion if needed and does meet the requirements of the rules of that race. It's also capable of providing some electric power if necessary, but only very inefficiently. As a back up it doesn't matter, as a primary source it keeps the boat from winning.
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Old 17-11-2016, 13:46   #358
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
1) Here is what you naysayer are WRONG about. And what you are RIGHT about.

2. You are wrong about range anxiety. No one says that batteries can store enough energy for a single session extended motoring ...

3. You are WRONG to harp on about conversion losses and diesel efficiencies and gear ratios and all that blather. The reason why, is that by far the majority of motoring can be done on a sufficient LFP bank ...
1) I'm neither a naysayer, nor the opposite.
2&3) Range is important in many cases that are not common, but do exist. They should be considered as the financial consequensies can be devastating if not considered. For example if you are sailing and your mast comes down in lat=62 degs 45' south, 124degs 30' west, and you are unable to make a juryrig, you are in deep trouble if your motoring range is below 2000 nautical miles at all speeds. You can be picked up by some ship if you engage epirb, but your boat is most likely a total loss, and your insurance doesn't necessarily cover the loss. In such case the ability of increasing the range by running the diesel efficiently at low revs combined with low hull drag at low boat speed is very useful, and a hybrid system using fuel can provide just that much better than regular diesel system with constant gear ratio and propeller pitch.
I hope that you are correct saying nobody claims batteries can provide the necessary energy source for this instead of fuel.
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Old 17-11-2016, 13:53   #359
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
How is producing a standard battery...innovative?

I suppose next you'll tell us his use of round wheels is an innovation.

I give up, next year at the boat show, we'll see 95% electric power boats and 5% diesel just to satisfy the "non-believers."
Tesla is building the NEXT standard battery which will be the 21700.

He has taken a plot of dirt and made the largest battery factory on EARTH in a little over 1 year.

When the Tesla battery Giga factory is completed it will be the largest building on EARTH.

These are FACTS that you usually like to hear.

This type of innovation will eventually trickle down to the boating industry.

It's all about ENERGY DENSITY.
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Old 17-11-2016, 14:10   #360
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by Just Another Sa View Post
I don't know, but I assume it does not rotate. The driveleg of the Gunboat Moonwave do rotate, and the company that made it belongs now to the Torqeedo brand.
It depends on what the primary purpose is?
It does provide propulsion if needed and does meet the requirements of the rules of that race. It's also capable of providing some electric power if necessary, but only very inefficiently. As a back up it doesn't matter, as a primary source it keeps the boat from winning.
"It's also capable of providing some electric power if necessary, but only very inefficiently.

Are you serious, or were you being ironic? The SD15 in regen mode produces 2Kw at 6.5 knots and Coleman got 4.5kW at higher speeds. That's inefficient???

Not only that, he gets no loss of boatspeed when regenerating! He has commented that his power levels from the OceanVolt SD15 is "brilliant".

The SD15 is his primary source of power. It is to be used for propulsion only in emergency, as is the case with the redundant Fischer Panda 4kW DC genset.
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