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Old 14-11-2016, 19:51   #256
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
The perfect boat in my mind has two electric motors (one per hull), two diesel generators and Lithium batteries setup as a serial hybrid system. Normal operation would be power from one generator to obtain normal cruise speed (5-6k) with some reserve for house loads/charging. When additional thrust is needed, it would pull from the battery bank first and the 2nd generator would fire up to sustain the additional load as required. Throw in some solar panels for additional power, especially while on the hook. Ideally enough solar prevent running the genset on a normal day.
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There was a time in the past when I was following this diesel electric technology with much anticipation as to new developments. I was particularly interested in the systems approach being developed by now defunct Glacier Bayís OSSA Powerlitetm system. Too bad they were unable to continue with some excellent work they were progressing on.

[QUOTE] Diesel-Electric Powerplants: The rim drive units are electrically driven, so they would require some portion of the latest technologies associated with the ever expanding 'diesel/electric propulsion' technologies:
  • Diesel/electric power generating units preclude the need for additional
    'auxiliary generator(s)'Öfewer engines required onboard.
  • Entire vessel could be powered by versatile options:
    1. 1 single big main-unit
    2. 2 equal-size units
    3. 2 unequal size units, for a high or low power need
  • Considerable amounts of electric power would be available for all auxiliary equipments onboard, as well as for sail winching & furling operations
  • Diesel/Electric Propulsion for Sailboats - Boat Design Forums[/QUOTE]
    DynaRig MotorSailer
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Old 14-11-2016, 19:57   #257
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Old 14-11-2016, 20:16   #258
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

If you are seriously considering an EP vessel, look at how the big boys do it. You might get some ideas.

While Aquamaster, a subsidiary of RR, is considered the top of the line, I don't think they build a small enough unit to drive a 40' cat.

Thrustmaster builds units down to 26kw according to the brochure.

https://www.thrustmaster.net/

http://www.rolls-royce.com/~/media/F...propulsors.pdf
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Old 14-11-2016, 21:42   #259
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Rob

You are totally missing the point. In each case (5 actually) there was absolutely nothing wrong with the EP technology or the product. There are other good products out there other than OceanVolt.

Rather, it was simply that EP could not deliver on the requirement for a safe and effective operating environment for ocean cruising. What looked good on a spreadsheet simply did not work in the real world.

Whether it is OceanVolt or any other product is immaterial.

The EP delivers in controlled conditions, just as I could have 10hp motors in controlled conditions, but when real world ocean conditions prevail you need 5 times that power. This is a lesson that comes from hard experience, as many have stated here, but no doubt you will continue to ignore.
Thanks Chris,

No, I get it. But the devil here is in the detail. The specifics matter. What were the EP system specs and boat specs and what forces were experienced that the EP could not cope with? Was the system sized correctly for reasonable worst case conditions? Was the range at maximum power adequate for what conditions? Were there better ways of handling the situation i.e. could they sail instead of motor? No? Why not?

Within these experiences there are valuable learnings, but we need the details. I just wrote a summary of my learnings that may have helped, but the session timed out and it all disappeared

If you can point me to these specific 5 examples, I can try to get some details and that would be really useful. The Alibi case I'm already aware of. I would not consider those adequate systems and those user results do not surprise me.

We will see how it pans out, but the Vendee Globe technical comittee gave the green light to OceanVolt and Conrad Coleman for this years Vendee Globe. And they TEST the systems, both EP propulsion and for electrical generation.

Chris, 28,000 miles of the most demanding conditions in the southern ocean, so let's see how that goes. That surely is beyond what we need as cruisers?

See ELECTRIFYING THE VENDEE GLOBE 2016
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Old 14-11-2016, 23:19   #260
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
We will see how it pans out, but the Vendee Globe technical comittee gave the green light to OceanVolt and Conrad Coleman for this years Vendee Globe. And they TEST the systems, both EP propulsion and for electrical generation.

Chris, 28,000 miles of the most demanding conditions in the southern ocean, so let's see how that goes. That surely is beyond what we need as cruisers?

See ELECTRIFYING THE VENDEE GLOBE 2016
Yep, a round the world race boat has exactly the same use case as a cruising yacht - not!

And another perfect piece of marketspeak:

Christian Hallberg: In fact, we initially developed the system for the 2016 Vendee Globe with another French team, which I can’t mention. That’s how we started working on passing the IMOCA 60 rule tests. The first one was a bollard pull test. The engine needed to create a bollard pull of 280 tons for 15 minutes. We thought this was going to be really tight for us, but we achieved it.
The second one requires the boat to run at a specific speed for 5 hours. That put stress on the batteries, but again the test went well.

Strange that they are very specific about the bollard pull criteria (and we know that EP is great at that because of the low RPM speed torque) but don't tell us what the "specific speed" for 5 hours was. (Can't be very high since they only have 600Ah or so of battery @ 12V).

I also found this amusing
"The whole idea behind Conrad’s ambition is to use the electric motor as a hydrogenerator, too. ...That way, he doesn’t have to put more drag on his boat and he can feed his boat with energy, without requiring fuel. He will carry some fuel, but only for emergencies....He installed the battery in the same compartment as the diesel engine."

So basically, he's stuck an EP motor in there primarily as a hydrogenerator to supply his electical needs and will still have his diesel engine for propulsion.
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Old 14-11-2016, 23:37   #261
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

OK, found the IMCO 2016 requirement:
"Generate a 5 knots speed at sea with a demonstrated range of 5 hours."

Hmmm! Does that mean the same as "Maintain 5 knots at sea for 5 hours"?

or just
"Achieve 5 knots at sea for a short time and motor at some undefined speed for 5 hours"

Debatable?
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Old 14-11-2016, 23:38   #262
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Yes, I could not agree with you more, that there should be owners posting their own experiences here on this and other forums.

But what would happen if that were to occur? Would they be accused by some here who believe it "doesn't/can't/won't work" of "fudging the figures", of "not testing properly", or some other dodge???

If you read the one-eyed posts on this forum from the naive skeptics, you'll
realise that there is a powerful incentive to NOT get involved. I have been told that EP owners are actively avoiding participating. When I have my boat launched, I have made a promise to publish the data, warts and all. That I will do, and I'll make sure the testing is done as well as it can be.

In the meantime, awhile ago I did post a link that showed 2 identical 45' cats from a charter company in a tug of war that showed 2x 10kW OceanVolt's towing 2x 29HP (22kW) diesels at maximum power to demonstrate the superior thrust of electric motors. Here is the link again



The discussion following that post was indicative of the anti EP agenda. The salient point of that video was that the force of the diesel boat could have been wind or current and because EP has better torque, it pushes against forces better than diesels with twice the Kw. But all we got was comments that tug of wars are irrelevant, and there must have been a current in favour of the OceanVolts, and other nonsense.

No wonder there are sailors who are reluctant to get involved here.

As to why marine journalists are not writing it up, I dunno, go ask Nigel Calder. I think he was invited to Finland to see for himself.
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EP theory is all about energy use, energy production, solar panel physics, battery physics etc. This is the theoratical physics that uses the knowledge about energy creation and storage to postulate the feasibility of a proposal. Having done the number crunching you go ahead with the experimentation to test the theory. The pactical side reveals unforeseens like the large area of solar panels interfering with sail dynamics and boat stability or the increased weight of batteries and generators interferring with performance.
this forum is still at the theoretical physics level and several people are telling you that the numbers don't add up. Sure EP is fine for that brief run into port and out. The reality of sailing is that if you're focussed on reaching a destination then this might eventually require you to motor for several hours. Cruisers sail when the wind is right and motor the rest and this might be for 8+ hours. in those circumstances EP is out of the question (check the physics) and diesel electric does not achieve anything better than diesel except the genset can be put anywhere but that it's twice as heavy as straight diesel.
The cost benefit of adding huge arrarrays of solar panels, massive wind turbines, huge battery banks gigantic diesel genrators highly complex system controllers does not work out very well. Most sailors just want something to go sailing. It is a recreational pursuit that involves understanding how wind works. Motors are a necessary evil for most of us. We want to worry about getting the most out of our sails not whether we can save $4 an hour when we're motoring especially when we need to put up$100,000+ to make that saving.
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Old 14-11-2016, 23:42   #263
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Just noticed another one:

Here's what the OV marketer said:
"We use a standard folding propeller."
Here's what the rule says:
(f) Propeller
It shall be located below the waterline, as close as possible to the boat’s centreline, and shall be neither retractable nor foldaway, nor be located on a movable appendage. It shall be permanently positioned in the water flow running under the hull with zero heeling angle.
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Old 15-11-2016, 02:04   #264
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Look if you are a fine weather marina sailor electric can work, if your going to journey its diesel.
If you want electric for environmental reasons consider running the diesel on biodiesel for a smaller footprint but you still get the noise !
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Old 15-11-2016, 02:56   #265
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Yep, a round the world race boat has exactly the same use case as a cruising yacht - not!

And another perfect piece of marketspeak:

Christian Hallberg: In fact, we initially developed the system for the 2016 Vendee Globe with another French team, which I canít mention. Thatís how we started working on passing the IMOCA 60 rule tests. The first one was a bollard pull test. The engine needed to create a bollard pull of 280 tons for 15 minutes. We thought this was going to be really tight for us, but we achieved it.
The second one requires the boat to run at a specific speed for 5 hours. That put stress on the batteries, but again the test went well.

Strange that they are very specific about the bollard pull criteria (and we know that EP is great at that because of the low RPM speed torque) but don't tell us what the "specific speed" for 5 hours was. (Can't be very high since they only have 600Ah or so of battery @ 12V).

I also found this amusing
"The whole idea behind Conradís ambition is to use the electric motor as a hydrogenerator, too. ...That way, he doesnít have to put more drag on his boat and he can feed his boat with energy, without requiring fuel. He will carry some fuel, but only for emergencies....He installed the battery in the same compartment as the diesel engine."

So basically, he's stuck an EP motor in there primarily as a hydrogenerator to supply his electical needs and will still have his diesel engine for propulsion.
Who said anything about this being a perfect use case for cruising? I didn't, so what are you on about? What is obvious is that these guys take equipment decisions very seriously, as their race results and their lives may depend on it. This is arguably the toughest race there is on both the racer and their boat & equipment, so whats all this nonsense about marketspeak?
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Old 15-11-2016, 02:59   #266
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Just noticed another one:

Here's what the OV marketer said:
"We use a standard folding propeller."
Here's what the rule says:
(f) Propeller
It shall be located below the waterline, as close as possible to the boatís centreline, and shall be neither retractable nor foldaway, nor be located on a movable appendage. It shall be permanently positioned in the water flow running under the hull with zero heeling angle.
Ahem, ahhh you may find that foldaway does not have the same meaning as folding?
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Old 15-11-2016, 03:01   #267
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

The idea that there is some "breakthrough" in technology known only by one company isn't borne by the facts. Lithium batteries are over 90% efficient. Diesel generators are about as efficient as they can be and ever were. Electric motors and their electronic speed controls are about as efficient today as they were 100 years ago. Nothing "earth shaking" has changed about diesel/electric technology in probably 25 years, maybe longer. The physics are what they are. Anytime some new company tries to marinize the technology by making it lighter they end up killing the reliability. They have all failed to create a mainstream competitor to plain old diesel mechanical systems.

Diesel electric is not lighter, cheaper or more efficient on a sail boat. And there is no new engineering magic that has made it so. Until they make a composite Diesel engine to reduce cost/weight or some other breakthrough it will continue to be so. Solar panels are just not available that allow a practical cruising boat to rely purely on the sun for power either. I wish these physics problems could be solved too but they aren't. When they are solved you won't have any problem finding out about it. There will be media stories coming at us from everywhere. There is no great conspiracy against diesel electric. It simply isn't better for 99% of us cruisers.
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Old 15-11-2016, 04:26   #268
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Who said anything about this being a perfect use case for cruising? I didn't, so what are you on about? What is obvious is that these guys take equipment decisions very seriously, as their race results and their lives may depend on it. This is arguably the toughest race there is on both the racer and their boat & equipment, so whats all this nonsense about marketspeak?
(Ignoring your gratuitous insertion of the word "perfect")

You implied it.
"We will see how it pans out, but the Vendee Globe technical comittee gave the green light to OceanVolt and Conrad Coleman for this years Vendee Globe. And they TEST the systems, both EP propulsion and for electrical generation.

Chris, 28,000 miles of the most demanding conditions in the southern ocean, so let's see how that goes. That surely is beyond what we need as cruisers?"

It's clear that their requirements do not come near "what we need as cruisers". (That's why they only require 27HP engines under the rules. Name any cruising boat of a comparable size that only has 27HP)

To add:
Their race results do NOT depend on their engines in any way!
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Old 15-11-2016, 04:45   #269
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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I don't doubt this to be true, but the serial hybrid would allow for better redundancy and the ability to go on sun power alone, albeit slowly.
If you are willing to accept something like 3kt speed at a cost drastically higher to install...sure.


Thanks for the info about the train vs. boat. Any comments on the other benefits?

It works great for trains where a mechanical transmission would be huge, heavy, massively complicated and eat up lots of power due to internal friction.

All the cruising boats need a house bank, no? Just talking about a bigger one possibly. Most seem to like to have solar, but on this you could use solar to propel the boat, or provide motor sail assist.

House loads vs propulsion loads are at least an order of magnitude different. A big house battery bank might have 1000amp-hr (12V). That might buy you an hour under electric power at slow speeds. To get just an all day cruise range at 80-90% of hull speed (which from experience is what most cruisers expect), and you are talking a battery bank 10 times that size.

One generator being able to run both motors would offer more redundancy than the normal twin diesel sail drive, right?
How do you figure, one motor is more redundant that two independent motors?
- With the hybrid, if the diesel dies, you have maybe an hour to get someplace secure to try and figure things out before the batteries die.
- With twin traditional drives, if one fails, while it's a good idea to find someplace to secure the boat, you can continue on until the 2nd engine runs out of fuel...assuming the first engine didn't die due to fuel problems, you could even extend that by transferring fuel.
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Old 15-11-2016, 04:54   #270
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
You would think so, wouldn't you? Aside from Nigel Calder, who else have you seen write anything comprehensive on EP for boats? It is a very dynamic field, lots of players, with huge R&D programs and multi-millions being spent....and who is writing anything, besides Nigel Calder??? His last article in Sail was a good overview and he had good things to say about OceanVolt as a serial EP providor, but as has been pointed out, where are the field reports about users?
Did you not read the post you were responding to? The whole point is if these systems were half as good as the marketing departments claim, they would have reporters down on test boats showing them in real life and the magazines would be putting out articles left and right because they want to be associated with the best thing since sliced bread. The cruising community (particularly the sailing branch) tend toward the tree hugger crowd so it would be a big draw for readers.

The lack of articles is deafening evidence that the companies developing these systems don't want an unbiased review going out. Much better half truths implying these systems have magic HP and unlimited range.
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