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Old 14-11-2016, 14:14   #241
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Here's small boat, very basic setup, only 200 Ah 48V non-lithium battery bank, no wind, no solar at all, but there is real testing with real numbers, it's better than useless theoretical discussion.
When cruising speed reached, battery draw is about 90Ax48V=4.32kW (as per video)



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Old 14-11-2016, 14:20   #242
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Ok what about using Capacitors as a storage method they are cheap and very light and charge up very quickly .I'm a noob in all this but want to build a solar/wind cruiser
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Old 14-11-2016, 14:21   #243
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
That's it, we're all just haters and electric HP is magic.
Garbage videos are probably why people are so cynical. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that electric motors deliver near peak torque at 0 rpm. From a standstill I would expect an electric system to out perform anything that relies on combustion compression to turn a crankshaft - electric cars, diesel-electric locomotives, etc.

The concern everyone has that the sales people curiously avoid is whether you can power a certain boat at hull speed for 48 hours. I'll never live to see battery technology advance to allow that, but if it does - I can see people adopting it for the RIGHT application.

It is the same type of barrier to entry that electric car companies have to address - range anxiety, the difference is that electric car companies that are doing well aren't doing garbage comparisons videos like tying a Tesla with a Mercedes luxury sedan and making them tow each other.
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Old 14-11-2016, 14:23   #244
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Capacitors have much less energy storage density than Lithium based batteries. Plus capacitors have a linear voltage vs. charge function whereas a battery has nearly constant voltage vs charge. Batteries win every time at least up to the present time.
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Old 14-11-2016, 14:29   #245
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

I'm not an expert in any of the relevant fields, just a normal (<--I'm lying about this part) guy.

Why do freight trains use serial DE systems if they aren't the most efficient/reliable powertrains? After all they go long distances with very little support.

The perfect boat in my mind has two electric motors (one per hull), two diesel generators and Lithium batteries setup as a serial hybrid system. Normal operation would be power from one generator to obtain normal cruise speed (5-6k) with some reserve for house loads/charging. When additional thrust is needed, it would pull from the battery bank first and the 2nd generator would fire up to sustain the additional load as required. Throw in some solar panels for additional power, especially while on the hook. Ideally enough solar prevent running the genset on a normal day.

Some large ships use serial DE but it appears many use direct drive diesel.

My past life I lived on Trident Submarine and normal propulsion was nuclear/steam/turbine/reduction gears. But we also had an approximately 1800HP diesel with a directly connected AC generator as backup. The main propeller shaft could be turned by an electric motor running from the large battery bank / diesel generator. I don't remember if the electric motor, was AC or DC. It was very speed limited on electric only, but it was a lot better than nothing. With a very large diesel fuel tank, we could motor for well over 1000nm.

Back to my ideal boat:

This would seem to provide long range with enough diesel on board and enough HP for emergencies. Redundancy of having two generators and only needing one for normal propulsion.

Volvo D1-20 (13.3kw propeller shaft) @ 317 pounds dry each. Add some weight for fluids and prop.
Onan Marine QD60 11.5kw @ 315 pounds dry with sound shield each. Add in the Oceanvolt SD10kw @ 102 pounds each. That appears to include the prop. The SD15 (kw) are the same weight according to Oceanvolt website.

The weights aren't drastically different if you don't care about the solar panels. Solar panels would have more benefit here. You may not be able to go far on solar alone, but some is better than none, right?

The Onan 11.5kw is rated at 3.9 l/hr at full load. 2.5 l/hr at half load.

Please pick this apart and tell me why this is stupid or not practical besides the most obvious, that it's not the typical, therefore that presents a set of problems ranging from spare parts, outside help, etc.

Chris
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Old 14-11-2016, 14:35   #246
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Hi Chris,

To keep it simple - basically for a boat to be able power itself electrically with a diesel genset at the cruising speed you're specifying, I can power it with a diesel engine, charge my housebank and have a longer range without the cost or weight of the electric motor or batteries.
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Old 14-11-2016, 14:43   #247
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranchero76 View Post
Here's small boat, very basic setup, only 200 Ah 48V non-lithium battery bank, no wind, no solar at all, but there is real testing with real numbers, it's better than useless theoretical discussion.
When cruising speed reached, battery draw is about 90Ax48V=4.32kW (as per video)
I didn't catch the specific model but it looked like 25-27' mono and got 4kts.
Pretty similar to what I would expect with a 6hp outboard strapped to the back.

At 90A, you looking at 1-2hrs or about 4-8miles (depending on how far you want to run the bank down). OK if you just want to get in and out of the marina.

(FYI - for the casual observer 200Ah at 48V is equivalent in energy storage to 800Ah at 12V so it's a pretty good size battery bank).
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Old 14-11-2016, 14:47   #248
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by FlyingScot View Post
I'm not an expert in any of the relevant fields, just a normal (<--I'm lying about this part) guy.

Why do freight trains use serial DE systems if they aren't the most efficient/reliable powertrains? After all they go long distances with very little support.


Chris
The comparison to trains and ships has been discussed before. It is more about replacing the transmission than pure efficiency.

Imagine the complications of coordinating gear shifts on 5 train engines each powering multiple axles thru a mechanical transmission. With electric, it's pretty easy.

This is solving an issue that isn't present on a cruising boat.
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Old 14-11-2016, 14:52   #249
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
The comparison to trains and ships has been discussed before. It is more about replacing the transmission than pure efficiency.

Imagine the complications of coordinating gear shifts on 5 train engines each powering multiple axles thru a mechanical transmission. With electric, it's pretty easy.

This is solving an issue that isn't present on a cruising boat.
This - in most marine applications there's no reason why the operator cannot throttle the engine to optimal desired rpm and leave it there. Trains also have to deal with tractive force and rolling resistance.
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Old 14-11-2016, 15:08   #250
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Has anyone thought of using solar heat to generate power like molten salt or a piston driven steam engine .The heat generated could power the vessel overnight I'm new to this so excuse the noob questioning
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Old 14-11-2016, 15:14   #251
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen View Post
Hi Chris,

To keep it simple - basically for a boat to be able power itself electrically with a diesel genset at the cruising speed you're specifying, I can power it with a diesel engine, charge my housebank and have a longer range without the cost or weight of the electric motor or batteries.
I don't doubt this to be true, but the serial hybrid would allow for better redundancy and the ability to go on sun power alone, albeit slowly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
The comparison to trains and ships has been discussed before. It is more about replacing the transmission than pure efficiency.

Imagine the complications of coordinating gear shifts on 5 train engines each powering multiple axles thru a mechanical transmission. With electric, it's pretty easy.

This is solving an issue that isn't present on a cruising boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen View Post
This - in most marine applications there's no reason why the operator cannot throttle the engine to optimal desired rpm and leave it there. Trains also have to deal with tractive force and rolling resistance.
Thanks for the info about the train vs. boat. Any comments on the other benefits?

All the cruising boats need a house bank, no? Just talking about a bigger one possibly. Most seem to like to have solar, but on this you could use solar to propel the boat, or provide motor sail assist.

One generator being able to run both motors would offer more redundancy than the normal twin diesel sail drive, right?
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Old 14-11-2016, 16:24   #252
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Having owned two cats, looked at hundreds of others around the world, visited factories and examined the marine industry from a critical viewpoint as a professional electrical engineer with 35 years experience, it seems to me that like many areas of life it relies to a great degree on hype, rather than facts.


Being based in a marina where there is a significant degree of sales activity I am constantly surprised at the outlandish claims made by various parties in regard to boat performance.


Like anything these claims are based on a modicum of truth in which a "fact" is translated into a universal statement of supposed fact. The most often quoted example is "I have seen the plotter read 16k", a "fact" translated to a "hype" like this boat has a maximum speed of 16k and often achieves such - a statement which is not only untrue but completely misleading.


I have no doubt that OceanVolt managed under certain circumstances to power a 40+ cat with 10hp engines at 7kn - easy to do in flat seas, with tide and wind in your favour. Thus it is a "fact" that this feat was achieved. The translated "hype" is that you will achieve this in normal conditions, a reality which is completely refuted by anyone actually operating a 40+ cat.


I note that on their website they state that "OceanVolt is the electric motor of choice for all of the following manufacturers and designers". This is a "fact" in one context in that these parties have chosen OceanVolt as their electric motor of choice, and justifiably so as OceanVolt is a good product. It is "hype" in that this implies that these parties are recommending EP to their customers, and nothing could be further from the truth. They are simply saying that if you are ballsy enough to go with EP then OceanVolt would be their choice. Nearly all of them have been burnt with EP in the past and if pressed diesels will be their recommendation if you are sailing in the open ocean.


This debate in regard to EP has raged for at least five years on this site, at least that I am aware of - it may be longer. Its seems to divide into those that actually sail a boat in the open ocean and those that sail a spreadsheet. EP is an enticing prospect,and when it becomes practical and safe, the vast majority of sailors will embrace it, myself included.


I am a big proponent of early adopters. They help usher in the world of technology for all of us often at a great cost to them. The problem with sailing the open ocean is that early adoption can result in significant damage and potential loss of life, and perhaps this may be too big a price to pay.


I really have no issues with the EP evangelicals. They believe that do the research and they look at the so called "facts" and they ignore the conventional view, and the laws of physics for that matter. I do worry for those that know very little about the subject and follow the evangelicals down a dangerous path. I have seen many do so to their extreme detriment, fortunately only for significant financial damage up to this point.


It was Jim I think that said that the constant disagreement of position on this site in many threads over many years is somewhat futile, and the proof will be in the proven performance of any given boat in real world and open ocean conditions. In the meantime the true believers will continue to push the boundaries until the hype actually becomes fact.
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Old 14-11-2016, 17:04   #253
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmitterdan View Post
Writers for magazines targeting boaters, cruisers and other boat lovers are anxious to find new topics to write about. It does not require owners to do any "free marketing" in this industry. All it takes is a few phone calls to free lance or staff writers of any boating magazine or well read web site. Writers will be crawling across broken glass to be the first to write 1,500 words about a 40 foot cruising cat powered by a 15hp generator and a couple of 5hp electric motors. They'll jump at the chance to take one out for a spin and write all about it. In today's world there is a great thirst for greener solutions. If it actually works as you say then it will be easy to get independent publications to write about it.
You would think so, wouldn't you? Aside from Nigel Calder, who else have you seen write anything comprehensive on EP for boats? It is a very dynamic field, lots of players, with huge R&D programs and multi-millions being spent....and who is writing anything, besides Nigel Calder??? His last article in Sail was a good overview and he had good things to say about OceanVolt as a serial EP providor, but as has been pointed out, where are the field reports about users?

In Oz, we will have some good ones coming in the next few months, so hang in there, I'll get the sea trail data from the horses mouth.
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Old 14-11-2016, 17:34   #254
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Having owned two cats, looked at hundreds of others around the world, visited factories and examined the marine industry from a critical viewpoint as a professional electrical engineer with 35 years experience, it seems to me that like many areas of life it relies to a great degree on hype, rather than facts.


Being based in a marina where there is a significant degree of sales activity I am constantly surprised at the outlandish claims made by various parties in regard to boat performance.


Like anything these claims are based on a modicum of truth in which a "fact" is translated into a universal statement of supposed fact. The most often quoted example is "I have seen the plotter read 16k", a "fact" translated to a "hype" like this boat has a maximum speed of 16k and often achieves such - a statement which is not only untrue but completely misleading.


I have no doubt that OceanVolt managed under certain circumstances to power a 40+ cat with 10hp engines at 7kn - easy to do in flat seas, with tide and wind in your favour. Thus it is a "fact" that this feat was achieved. The translated "hype" is that you will achieve this in normal conditions, a reality which is completely refuted by anyone actually operating a 40+ cat.


I note that on their website they state that "OceanVolt is the electric motor of choice for all of the following manufacturers and designers". This is a "fact" in one context in that these parties have chosen OceanVolt as their electric motor of choice, and justifiably so as OceanVolt is a good product. It is "hype" in that this implies that these parties are recommending EP to their customers, and nothing could be further from the truth. They are simply saying that if you are ballsy enough to go with EP then OceanVolt would be their choice. Nearly all of them have been burnt with EP in the past and if pressed diesels will be their recommendation if you are sailing in the open ocean.


This debate in regard to EP has raged for at least five years on this site, at least that I am aware of - it may be longer. Its seems to divide into those that actually sail a boat in the open ocean and those that sail a spreadsheet. EP is an enticing prospect,and when it becomes practical and safe, the vast majority of sailors will embrace it, myself included.


I am a big proponent of early adopters. They help usher in the world of technology for all of us often at a great cost to them. The problem with sailing the open ocean is that early adoption can result in significant damage and potential loss of life, and perhaps this may be too big a price to pay.


I really have no issues with the EP evangelicals. They believe that do the research and they look at the so called "facts" and they ignore the conventional view, and the laws of physics for that matter. I do worry for those that know very little about the subject and follow the evangelicals down a dangerous path. I have seen many do so to their extreme detriment, fortunately only for significant financial damage up to this point.


It was Jim I think that said that the constant disagreement of position on this site in many threads over many years is somewhat futile, and the proof will be in the proven performance of any given boat in real world and open ocean conditions. In the meantime the true believers will continue to push the boundaries until the hype actually becomes fact.
Well put, Chris

However, you are one of the people who on a thread where the OP asked if anyone had experience about OceanVolt, you responded by letting us all know that, once again, EP had failed during "real open ocean use" and was replaced by three owners (that you were aware of) at great expense, but luckily no loss of life.

So you are creating the impression, whether intentional or not, that ALL EP systems are equally risky and dangerous and unreliable and under performing.
YES! There have been failures of EP systems & for a variety of reasons. As you probably know more than most, quality and good design/execution really count, especially in a relatively new field.

Are the 3 you referred to in your previous post the Alibi cats from Thailand? Were they OceanVolt systems? NO! They were not.

OceanVolt have something like 100ish installations, and there has been.... 1, one, uno, warrany claim and that was for a battery issue. Not their motor or electrics or cabling or control systems. This is fundamentally different situation compared to other vendors, some for example very high profile European vendors who over promise and massively under-deliver, where you can read the litany of unhappy customers on sites, like Panbo.

So I am calling for a bit of critical thinking here. Not all systems are equal. What a surprise! All Fords are not hard to start in the winter, and not all TV's blow capacitors after 6 months. But some do. So what? Which are the good vendors, and which are not?
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Old 14-11-2016, 19:02   #255
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Rob

You are totally missing the point. In each case (5 actually) there was absolutely nothing wrong with the EP technology or the product. There are other good products out there other than OceanVolt.

Rather, it was simply that EP could not deliver on the requirement for a safe and effective operating environment for ocean cruising. What looked good on a spreadsheet simply did not work in the real world.

Whether it is OceanVolt or any other product is immaterial.

The EP delivers in controlled conditions, just as I could have 10hp motors in controlled conditions, but when real world ocean conditions prevail you need 5 times that power. This is a lesson that comes from hard experience, as many have stated here, but no doubt you will continue to ignore.
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