Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

[ssmoot]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

We have 1000 Watts of solar. Our best day this summer has been 3.9 kWh.

That's helpful. Depends on your installation if that's good or poor for the amount of solar you have. Seems like a fair average to me. As a peak-performance number it seems a bit low. Unless maybe that's stored amps in a lead-acid battery. Then it makes much more sense and I'd expect the input side to log significantly higher if you were measuring it. Or maybe your stomping grounds are a good deal off the equator.

I was using the 5-hour number used earlier in the thread. It's been mentioned more than once I think, and didn't seem to be controversial.

Anyways, 3kW * 5 == 15kWh. Reserve 5 for cooking, navigation, general electronics and that's where the "10kWh excess" comes from.

I think that's all in the comment if you read between the lines, but it's pretty long so easy to miss I'm sure.

If you want to say 4kWh is your burn, and you can expect only 4 hours of full sun averaged in, that's still 8kWh of excess so it doesn't change the picture a whole lot.

[44'cruisingcat]

So you're planning a 5 kW solar array? 25m2 of solar panels? Roughly speaking, 50% of a 10 metre cat covered in solar panels.

I don't know about you, but IMO that's not realistic. Not for a sailing boat.

[ssmoot]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

So you're planning a 5 kW solar array? 25m2 of solar panels? Roughly speaking, 50% of a 10 metre cat covered in solar panels.

I don't know about you, but IMO that's not realistic. Not for a sailing boat.

5 hours of sun is 15kWh. 4 hours (averaged for the day) is 12kWh. That’s a 3kW array. If you have a fairly clean salon top, that doesn’t seem like too big of a challenge for most over-40’ boats. I’m not positive you can get there on an 1160 (38’), but probably close to it.

You might check out this thread if you haven’t already seen it: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ls-210542.html

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by ssmoot

5 hours of sun is 15kWh. 4 hours (averaged for the day) is 12kWh. That’s a 3kW array. If you have a fairly clean salon top, that doesn’t seem like too big of a challenge for most over-40’ boats. I’m not positive you can get there on an 1160 (38’), but probably close to it.

You might check out this thread if you haven’t already seen it: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ls-210542.html

Real world experience will change your perceptions.

[ssmoot]

Originally Posted by OldMan

Real world experience will change your perceptions.

Feel free to provide some daily wattage numbers for your own setup.

Or a multiplier you think is reasonable.

Here’s an article that you might find helpful: https://www.coastalclimatecontrol.co...do-i-need.html

The quality of your panels, routine maintenance, and layout design to anticipate shading, charger efficiency and battery chemistry (one of the bigger factors) will obviously all be factors particular to your own boat. The nice thing about this forum for new owners is they can benefit from the experiences to maximize their own new installations.

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by ssmoot

Feel free to provide some daily wattage numbers for your own setup.

Or a multiplier you think is reasonable.

Here’s an article that you might find helpful: https://www.coastalclimatecontrol.co...do-i-need.html

The quality of your panels, routine maintenance, and layout design to anticipate shading, charger efficiency and battery chemistry (one of the bigger factors) will obviously all be factors particular to your own boat. The nice thing about this forum for new owners is they can benefit from the experiences to maximize their own new installations.

80% for 4.5hr/day average

[ssmoot]

Originally Posted by OldMan

80% for 4.5hr/day average

In other words, a 3.6 multiplier.

Now, from what you’ve said it sounds like you’re using Lead Acid? And I’m assuming you’re probably not using SunPower panels?

Those two upgrades alone could see you well into the 4+ range.

Not that I’m suggesting you do that of course. You do you. But if you were looking at commisioning a new boat and were interested in EP? Well, the Lithium batteries would be a given I think. And the solar? I suppose it depends on the size of your boat and how much solar you can reasonably accomodate. But given the incremental TCO bump, it’s hard to rationalize trying to save dollars there IMO.

Anyways, this isn’t a solar thread. I don’t mean to derail. That was just some observations for something I’d strongly consider for my own boat.

I did include a generator in the pricing though. Not big enough to run at WOT continuously. Mostly because I think that’s not a worthwhile goal for me and it’s very expensive in both dollars and weight. But it’s a reasonable place to start I think. And of course, if you’re getting a builder-optioned generator, the pricing gap between ICE and EP tends to narrow from what I’ve seen since they typically charge a solid $10K over retail for the BTO option.

[ssmoot]

BTW, the builder option price that I’ve seen for an OceanVolt system on a Seawind 1160 LITE is $66,387, including generator, inverter and lithium batteries (sizes not specified, but as a builder option it’s presumably fairly generous).

That’s a good ways away from the $100K MSRP, but still a $45,000 upgrade over inboard diesels (which according to Seawind nobody bothers to option anymore).

It would be interesting to know if anyone’s actually taken them up on the offer. I think this price list is a few years old.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by ssmoot

5 hours of sun is 15kWh. 4 hours (averaged for the day) is 12kWh. That’s a 3kW array. If you have a fairly clean salon top, that doesn’t seem like too big of a challenge for most over-40’ boats. I’m not positive you can get there on an 1160 (38’), but probably close to it.

You might check out this thread if you haven’t already seen it: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ls-210542.html

The problem is, even if you have a clean salon top, there's a boom with a mainsail stacked on it, directly above. These cast shadows. As does the mast , spreaders etc.

And you might want to be able to walk on the salon top in order to access that sail. So you need a clear area around the boom. Solar panels wouldn't work well there anyway.

Also, there are often tracks for headsail sheet leads on the roof too.

We have 1000 Watts of solar on our 44 foot boat. TBH, fitting much more would compromise acess and freedom of movement, unless I opt for semi flexible panels that could be walked on, and even they would be a slip hazard. I can't see any way I could fit 3 times as much and still have be able to sail the boat efficiently.

And the reality is, on cloudy days our 1000W of solar doesn't always cover even our house loads.

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by ssmoot

In other words, a 3.6 multiplier.

Now, from what you’ve said it sounds like you’re using Lead Acid? And I’m assuming you’re probably not using SunPower panels?

Those two upgrades alone could see you well into the 4+ range.

Not that I’m suggesting you do that of course. You do you. But if you were looking at commisioning a new boat and were interested in EP? Well, the Lithium batteries would be a given I think. And the solar? I suppose it depends on the size of your boat and how much solar you can reasonably accomodate. But given the incremental TCO bump, it’s hard to rationalize trying to save dollars there IMO.

Anyways, this isn’t a solar thread. I don’t mean to derail. That was just some observations for something I’d strongly consider for my own boat.

I did include a generator in the pricing though. Not big enough to run at WOT continuously. Mostly because I think that’s not a worthwhile goal for me and it’s very expensive in both dollars and weight. But it’s a reasonable place to start I think. And of course, if you’re getting a builder-optioned generator, the pricing gap between ICE and EP tends to narrow from what I’ve seen since they typically charge a solid $10K over retail for the BTO option.

No, my number is the average output of the panels. It improves if you are in latitudes <15.

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The problem is, even if you have a clean salon top, there's a boom with a mainsail stacked on it, directly above. These cast shadows. As does the mast , spreaders etc.

And you might want to be able to walk on the salon top in order to access that sail. So you need a clear area around the boom. Solar panels wouldn't work well there anyway.

Also, there are often tracks for headsail sheet leads on the roof too.

We have 1000 Watts of solar on our 44 foot boat. TBH, fitting much more would compromise acess and freedom of movement, unless I opt for semi flexible panels that could be walked on, and even they would be a slip hazard. I can't see any way I could fit 3 times as much and still have be able to sail the boat efficiently.

And the reality is, on cloudy days our 1000W of solar doesn't always cover even our house loads.

^^^^^ This!

If you put 3kw of solar on a 40-45’ sail catamaran, it becomes a floating solar farm unable to sail.

[ssmoot]

Originally Posted by OldMan

No, my number is the average output of the panels. It improves if you are in latitudes <15.

You misunderstand the concept. The multiplier is your panel watts * multiplier in order to estimate average daily output. It’s the most common way I’ve seen to estimate a system’s output.

80% of 4.5 hours of sun is overcomplicating it. Using the more common format you’d say the same thing as 3.6.

So in the theoretical 3kW system you’re estimating 10,800Wh of solar input a day.

I’m saying you could increase that number with batteries that charge more efficiently, and then you can increase it again by upgrading panels. It might not sound like much, but going from a mid-range 18% panel to a high-end 22% panel is an almost 20% increase in output all by itself, which more than makes up for the difference in output we’re discussing.

[ssmoot]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The problem is, even if you have a clean salon top, there's a boom with a mainsail stacked on it, directly above. These cast shadows. As does the mast , spreaders etc.

Yes. Which I mentioned.

Your best output is a multiplier of 3.9.

Unless you have lithium batteries, have worked your salon top to minimize obstructions and shading, and you’ve got 22%+ efficient panels I’m not sure why you seem so skeptical. A multiplier somewhere between 4 and 5 seems easily achievable in your case if you had the opportunity and motivation to do it all over again today.

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

And you might want to be able to walk on the salon top in order to access that sail. So you need a clear area around the boom. Solar panels wouldn't work well there anyway.

Of course you do. Which is why you buy walkable panels for any area you need regular unobstructed access to. Which appears to be fairly common.

You’ll need to provide a rationale for why you believe panels wouldn’t work there since the boom isn’t going to be shading both sides of the boat at the same time most of the time though.

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Also, there are often tracks for headsail sheet leads on the roof too.

Not on a Seawind 1160 or 1260. You only have the tri-fold line running down the centerline directly under the boom to worry about. But a centerline panel (as opposed to panels on each side of it) is likely to be frequently shaded anyway so it doesn’t seem like much of a compromise to not have that option.

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

We have 1000 Watts of solar on our 44 foot boat. TBH, fitting much more would compromise acess and freedom of movement, unless I opt for semi flexible panels that could be walked on, and even they would be a slip hazard. I can't see any way I could fit 3 times as much and still have be able to sail the boat efficiently.

I do agree the design of many boats precludes installing this much solar. Some people are shopping for boats with galley up designs. Or seating for 12 in the cockpit. Or a flybridge. And boats that don’t have those features are deal killers. My deal killer is boats that compromise their solar carrying ability.

I mean I would’ve thought putting 3kW on a St. Francis 50 would be a tall order, but here we are.

[OldMan]

Originally Posted by ssmoot

You misunderstand the concept. The multiplier is your panel watts * multiplier in order to estimate average daily output. It’s the most common way I’ve seen to estimate a system’s output.

80% of 4.5 hours of sun is overcomplicating it. Using the more common format you’d say the same thing as 3.6.

So in the theoretical 3kW system you’re estimating 10,800Wh of solar input a day.

I’m saying you could increase that number with batteries that charge more efficiently, and then you can increase it again by upgrading panels. It might not sound like much, but going from a mid-range 18% panel to a high-end 22% panel is an almost 20% increase in output all by itself, which more than makes up for the difference in output we’re discussing.

No, your 22% panels will still only output 80% of rating for 4.5 hours a day, batteries have nothing to do with the fact that panels are rated for sun @ 90 degrees with zero blockage.

FWIW, you can buy 16% panels for .50/watt, or you can buy 22% panels for $3.00/watt. It’s all about ROI.

[ssmoot]

Originally Posted by OldMan

No, your 22% panels will still only output 80% of rating for 4.5 hours a day, batteries have nothing to do with the fact that panels are rated for sun @ 90 degrees with zero blockage.

FWIW, you can buy 16% panels for .50/watt, or you can buy 22% panels for $3.00/watt. It’s all about ROI.

If you replace your 16% panels with 22% panels, are you going to install fewer of them?

To me it’s nonsense to be looking at a boat approaching $600,000 like an optioned Seawind 1260, and then be worried about the price of your solar panel installation while at the same time ticking the box to drop $20K on a diesel generator.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on wether maximizing solar is a worthwhile endeavor.

Also, you’re getting ripped off on your panel pricing.