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Old 16-12-2018, 21:12   #1741
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
You're not the only person posting here!
My apologies then. I must've lost track of the cross-posting and thought you were referring to the earlier chain about coasting on regen.

I wonder what the ratio among cruisers is who prefer to power through vs "dial it back a notch". Maybe something to do with bridge-deck-clearance.
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Old 16-12-2018, 22:43   #1742
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

Big Beakie: So how is your build coming along. In the first page of the thread (Sept 2016), you said your new boat was going to have them.

It's December 2018 now....?
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Old 16-12-2018, 23:03   #1743
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Big Beakie: So how is your build coming along. In the first page of the thread (Sept 2016), you said your new boat was going to have them.

It's December 2018 now....?
Awww and I was having a good day until you had to remind me that we should have been cruising by now. Yes, well thanks for asking....

The build did not start in Sept 2016, it was in Q1 2017. Major issue with a glass supplier. Not a good start. The build is much slower than expected, or hoped for. Welcome to boat building in Thailand

And I know your next question, right? When is the launch? Well,
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Old 17-12-2018, 06:03   #1744
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Nope, it's the marketing hype....

All marketing BS, i.e., fake news!
I agree only on the use of "game changer" the rest of it is just excited talk. Unless you think BB is working for one of these companies, he's just an excited customer, not a marketing person. I think we have room in this forum for excited customers.
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Old 17-12-2018, 06:22   #1745
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
You're not the only person posting here! Bridaus said loads wouldn't change due to regen.

Anyway, it's pretty rare that I slow down for comfort. I'll reduce sail when I feel it's prudent for safety, but as far as I can recall, reducing sail for comfort..... maybe in 2012?
Loads won't change on their own, but that doesn't mean you can't change them!

Just because mother nature does what she wants, doesn't mean you can't do what you want. Put in more sail and use it to regen, the loads are still the same before and after you press the button.

And if for some reason it's dangerous to put that much sail up before you turn on regen, it's just as dangerous, but no more dangerous, to put up that same sail for regen.

Again, regen does NOT change any forces on the boat.
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Old 17-12-2018, 06:32   #1746
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

It also is really a separate topic, just another alternative energy source not specifically relevant to EP.

Which all seem significant enough against normal (small) House loads, but do little to change any economic calculations wrt going EP with an existing boat design not purpose-built for EP and use patterns more demanding than getting into/out of marinas.

Of course, the fact that EP enables **any** fuel reduction from alternative electric sources is a (small) point in its favour.

But IMO detailed discussions of any of those alternative technologies would be better in a dedicated thread.
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Old 17-12-2018, 08:21   #1747
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Corrected it!

I keep bringing up LOAD! It's possible the prop on the 4JH5E is only pulling 13KW. How would we know?
This is a great point, and I keep missing it. Thanks for not letting it go. Let's examine it, but we'll have to make a LOT of assumptions because we don't have controlled test conditions.
  • The two boats are truly going the same speed. Reasonable assumption, but not guaranteed.
  • Boats have the same drag. Really unlikely, but possible.
  • Boat props are the same. Unlikely.
  • Shaft and transmission drag are very low and equal. (Unlikely, as the transmission adds 3-15% per my current understanding, and the OV is a SD which adds at least 3% IMO).
  • Probably some I missed.

So with all those assumptions (which I estimate most are unlikely, and I think invalidate this exercise, but we'll continue on), we "know":
  • The output power for each must be the same (same speeds mean same power is being output). This we know for sure.
  • Output of OV is predicted to be 14.25kW (based on input * efficiency of 15kW * 0.95) Sidenote, that just like ICE, EP is more efficient at load, just not as drastic because there aren't all the fluid/shaft/pumping losses to contend with. There is no idle speed or base level fuel consumption with EP.
  • Output of Yanmar is predicted to be 17kW (based on RPM using Yanmar propeller curve. Hmm).
  • We know for sure something doesn't add up...

Therefore, if we theorize that the Yanmar is providing less power than predicted to achieve the same speed we must observe:
  • The Yanmar is losing power somewhere OR the rating is incorrect. It can't have less output by definition.
  • If the loss is due to system inefficiency (shaft/drag/etc.), it's a complete loss, fuel wasted.
  • Even if the loss is due to gearing/prop, it's losing efficiency. Counter-intuitive, but with ICE, when you reduce load, you reduce efficiency (look at bsfc maps). This is because per unit of power lost, you do NOT drop a significant amount of fuel like you would with an RPM+load drop. There is always a high base level of fuel consumption in ICE just to keep it running. For this engine at this power level, almost half the fuel consumption is just keeping the thing going. You will reduce fuel burn, but not very much.
  • If this issue is the rating is incorrect, not a lot we can do about that. We'll have to find trustable reference/numbers somewhere. Maybe the boat in question's manual?

Conversely, if we theorize that the OV is somehow putting out more power than predicted to achieve the same speed:
  • It's more efficient than stated. While it's theoretically possible, because EP handles slip better than ICE, I doubt it and I don't want to get accused of sorcery here.
  • Even at 100% efficient, it's not enough to match the 17kW of the Yanmar. Still something amiss.

https://www.yanmarmarine.com/theme/y...heet_4JH5E.pdf

Summary based on what we know: If the drag is the same (unlikely) and the props are the same (unlikely) and the machinery efficiency is the same (unlikely) then one of the two engines stated output is incorrect or being lost. More than likely the problem is with the Yanmar system. This is because it's the one losing against prediction, it's simply too unlikely to gain against theory. In other words, there is no magic in OV in my opinion, it's likely performing how it's supposed to. I want to add, you can't count this as a mark against the Yanmar (like it may sound) because we have no idea why the realized power is less than predicted. All we know is it's prediction is the furthest from reality.
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Old 17-12-2018, 08:43   #1748
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by bridaus View Post
I agree only on the use of "game changer" the rest of it is just excited talk. Unless you think BB is working for one of these companies, he's just an excited customer, not a marketing person. I think we have room in this forum for excited customers.

It all sounds like a repeat from a OV booth at a boat show.
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Old 17-12-2018, 08:52   #1749
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
. . The build did not start in Sept 2016, it was in Q1 2017. Major issue with a glass supplier. Not a good start. The build is much slower than expected, or hoped for. Welcome to boat building in Thailand. . .



Welcome to boat building in general. Welcome in fact to building anything.


Good luck and hang in there!
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Old 17-12-2018, 09:00   #1750
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by bridaus View Post
Again, regen does NOT change any forces on the boat.
To pick nits, I think you have to qualify that statement. If your wind is aft of the beam, then any extra hull drag that slows the boat Speed Through Water will indeed increase the apparent wind (aft), thus increasing the forces on the rig.

If you launched a drogue while running downwind without changing sails (which you would never actually do), then the forces on those sails go up considerably. If you enabled a hydro regeneration device on a run, same effect but much smaller. Probably inconsequential, but not zero.

Just to be clear.
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Old 17-12-2018, 09:09   #1751
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Just to pick nits, I think you have to qualify that statement. If your wind is aft of the beam, then any extra hull drag that slows the boat Speed Through Water will indeed increase the apparent wind (aft), thus increasing the forces on the rig.

If you launched a drogue while running downwind without changing sails, then the forces on those sails go up considerably. If you enabled a hydro regeneration device, same effect but much smaller. Probably inconsequential, but not zero.

Just to be clear.
I wondered if I'd be caught. I'm sure you are correct, I admitted I'm not a sailor a couple of times now.

Key point, the OV Regen will always apply it's force aligned with the hull. That will change your speed which has affects of which I know little to nothing about. I still bet a beer that all loads are less than design constraints. Do people break their rigs often when they catch a net or put out a drogue?

PS: I do think regen belongs in another post, while it's interesting on it's own, it has not a ton to do with EP overall as a post since you can use it with DD as well. Although OP could say that since it's included on OV, that it is... I'm not the thread arbiter in any case.
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Old 17-12-2018, 09:21   #1752
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by bridaus View Post
I was thinking one more thing about regen. As soon as you get to certain speeds, a lot of energy goes into pushing the hull just a tiny bit faster (equally for engines and for sail). Essentially this is "wasted wind". Conversely, if you regenerate at these speeds, you'll get a lot of energy for very little speed loss (note that it's not one for one, there are losses, not sure how efficient the prop is at regeneration speeds). . . .



I think this is right.


The energy required to move the boat goes up rather steeply actually quite a ways before hull speed, somewhere around speed/length ratio of 0.9 for monos. Once you get within a knot of hull speed, so much power is required that whatever power your regen system can take falls off as a significant proportion of what you are getting out of your sails. So those 400 watts or 1kW or whatever it is may really slow you down at 6 or 7 knots, but will not be much noticeable near hull speed. At hull speed, you could probably harvest 10kW or even more and hardly notice it -- if you had the gear capable of doing it (which I think a normal propeller running in reverse could not be). I can just make hull speed -- about 9.5 knots -- running my diesel wide open in calm water -- that's 100 horsepower (or 80 at the shaft or whatever). In a good breeze my carbon sails can push the boat to slam through hull speed -- I had hours at a time last summer over 10 knots. How much power is that? 2x? 3x? what the diesel produces? 300 horsepower? I don't believe you would notice even 20 horsepower being diverted to power production, sailing like that.





I would not be willing to lose 1/2 knot for 10 hours to generate enough power for electric motoring for 15 minutes. Some people might, but I can't imagine that ever being worthwhile on my boat. But if I were cooking along at 9 knots on a beam reach in a stiff breeze, I would be glad to make some power for whatever purposes. There were a number of days on my summer cruise this year where that would have been a very worthwhile tradeoff to avoid running the generator. However much power you can generate by regeneration, even if you could somehow generate enough for meaningful electric motoring, I think you will still be limited by storage.




A performance cat requiring a lot less power to motor than a mono (or a condo cat), and capable of really high speeds, will be a much more favorable use case for this, I would think -- you can generate a lot more power at high speeds, and you will use a lot less power electric motoring.


On the other hand, a performance cat can sail in a so much wider range of conditions than other kinds of boats, and needs so little diesel fuel to motor in calms, that it has a lot less need for any kind of electric motoring. Ask 44cruisingcat how much money he spends a year on diesel fuel, and then figure what kind of propulsion system you could pay for even over 10 years, even over 20 years, out of any possible savings out of 10 or 20 years of that sum. Even plugging in often, I doubt that that would ever come close to paying for itself.
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Old 17-12-2018, 09:32   #1753
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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On the other hand, a performance cat can sail in a so much wider range of conditions than other kinds of boats, and needs so little diesel fuel to motor in calms, that it has a lot less need for any kind of electric motoring. Ask 44cruisingcat how much money he spends a year on diesel fuel, and then figure what kind of propulsion system you could pay for even over 10 years, even over 20 years, out of any possible savings out of 10 or 20 years of that sum. Even plugging in often, I doubt that that would ever come close to paying for itself.
Essentially sailing is more energy efficient than anything we've talked about. Totally agree! So is walking, rowing, pedaling, etc. We burn fuel because we can, not because we should. :/
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Old 17-12-2018, 09:55   #1754
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by bridaus View Post
Essentially sailing is more energy efficient than anything we've talked about. Totally agree! So is walking, rowing, pedaling, etc. We burn fuel because we can, not because we should. :/

More energy efficient and more FUN


Not sure it's cheaper -- I figure a mile of sailing costs me more in amortization of my carbon sails than a mile of motoring. But cost is not everything, or we wouldn't sail at all.


But most of us motor 50% or more of our miles, so doing that well is also important. It would be different if I had something like a Chris White Atlantic 57 cat which can sail in 3 knots of wind, and faster than the true wind speed -- I would need the motor a lot less, and burn less diesel when I did need it. That's a very attractive format. Unfortunately this format doesn't work for the kind of sailing I do (high latitude, ice, significant risk of really big weather, etc.).
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We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 17-12-2018, 11:19   #1755
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Re: Oceanvolt Hybrid Motor

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Originally Posted by bridaus View Post
Loads won't change on their own, but that doesn't mean you can't change them!

Just because mother nature does what she wants, doesn't mean you can't do what you want. Put in more sail and use it to regen, the loads are still the same before and after you press the button.

And if for some reason it's dangerous to put that much sail up before you turn on regen, it's just as dangerous, but no more dangerous, to put up that same sail for regen.

Again, regen does NOT change any forces on the boat.
You've already said you dont know anything about sailing, there's no need to keep proving it.

When you're sailing downwind ( which we all try to do as much as possible) anything that adds drag, be it barnacles, extra weight, or dragging propellers, slows the boat down causing an increase in apparent wind and thus the loads on sails and rig.

I'm not saying that should cause a problem though.
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