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Old 29-01-2019, 18:31   #61
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Re: No room for negotiation?

Why would a broker not present an offer? He makes almost the same commission from a low offer. Time is money to brokers. In my experience, they care only about closing the sale.

If the OP was trying to buy a 20 year old mono from an average quality production boat builder, he’d get his big discount. Carrying a $100k boat for a year costs more than discounting $5k. Owners know that.

But the kind of person who owns a $500k newish cat is making a different calculation. There’s no loan. A year of dockage, insurance and mainenence is less than a 5% discount.

So I expect he told the broker he wouldn’t consider below asking offers for three months. There are so few comparables on a boat like this that it’s hard to pick a good asking price. So why negotiate against yourself by discounting to the first guy who comes along?

I know, because I’ve used this strategy selling my boat. It hadn’t sold at three months but the broker then had three interested people to call back. He told each them I would take the highest offer from the three.
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Old 29-01-2019, 18:48   #62
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Re: No room for negotiation?

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Keep waiting. There is no shortage of boats. Anything from 5-30% below asking price is normal.
Are you a broker with access to a statistical data base?
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Old 29-01-2019, 19:06   #63
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Re: No room for negotiation?

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
I would guess you probably sold your Seawind 1000 for close to what she cost new. I would also guess the used 1160’s are selling close to their price when new. I could be wrong and the used Seawind’s are actually selling above their prices when new.
It was a 2002 model that I purchased in 2006 and sold in 2018. Sold for more than I paid for her, but in my ownership period put on new motors, sails and electronics. I don't know what Seawind 1000 sold for new in 2002. But my cost of ownership was very satisfactory.

There have been some 10 yr old+ Seawind 1160's listed higher than what they sold for new.

Wife says this is the biggest boat I will ever own. She's probably right!
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Old 29-01-2019, 21:49   #64
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Re: No room for negotiation?

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
No.... he’s telling it like it is. Remember that Sailorboy is the guy with a boat and the OP is the guy who’s still trying to figure out how to get a boat.

Really.... Well you are all living in a different world to me. Putting an offer in within 5% is not a game, but a reasonable offer, unless you normally PLAY around with almost half a million dollars?


I'll take a punt and say that a very large percentage of the boat owners who have purchased a used boat on this forum will have put in an offer less than the asking price on the boat they purchased - I know I did on my boat, as well as a friend of mine who did also.
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Old 29-01-2019, 22:07   #65
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Re: No room for negotiation?

2018 Catamaran Market Recap by Wiley Sharp

https://youtu.be/P1EaXauHjf8

https://doc-04-b4-docs.googleusercon...s5m?e=download

This report gives a break down on every Cat sold in North America. It includes what percent of asking price the boat sold for and how long it was on the market. In the YouTube video Wiley breaks it down nicely. He also includes 2017 data like the file above.
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Old 29-01-2019, 22:19   #66
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Re: No room for negotiation?

A few thoughts:
- Be insistent that the broker put it in front of the owner. This isn't an insulting low ball offer. Make sure it's the owner saying no.
- Cruising boats often deviate from a true market scenario (at least for a while). Many owners have their heart, sole and dreams tied up in the boat...telling them their heart, sole and dreams are worth 25% less is a hard blow, so they often start out unrealistic. On a similar note, its not uncommon for the wife to tell him to sell it, so he puts an unrealistic value on it and then won't budget.
- 3 offers statistically doesn't define the market. It's entirely possible you found some unrealistic sellers. As long as you are looking at production boats and there are enough on the market, keep making offers.
- Time is on your side. It costs you nothing to wait a couple months. The seller has maintenance, slip fees, mortgage payments and depreciation every month.
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Old 29-01-2019, 22:51   #67
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Re: No room for negotiation?

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Originally Posted by Dooglas View Post
And even more to the point - "ask who what the seller might take?". The surveyor doesn't know and the broker is unlikely to tell you.

And even more important, an initial offer is basically the way to get a boat to survey. On a $450K used cat, you are likely to have a fairly long list of needed repairs/upgrades identified by the surveyor (or surveyors, as it is often best practice to have someone else survey the engine and mechanicals, and maybe a third person for the rig and sails). The next step is a revised proposal which involves either a lower offer or a series of repairs/upgrades to be done at the owners expense. If the boat is one you really want and the price is reasonable based on comparables you can find - getting the seller to agree to a small reduction up front is probably the least of your worries.

Point is there is almost always a change in price after the survey. Sometimes it is significant and sometimes not much at all. My survey showed one needed fiberglass repair that resulted in a little lower price. Also needed covers on the leads to the battery terminals and signs in the engine room about oil discharges and in the galley trash can about properly disposing of trash. The seller was happy to come up with some rubber covers for the battery terminals and some signs for the engine room and galley.

If the truth be told I was expecting a few more things wrong with the boat but the asking price was very close to being spot on. Not to mention the first time I saw the boat it was clear it was in really good shape. I had recently looked at a newer Seawind. When the broker opened the port companionway and I went below the stench from the head almost knocked me over. As the broker noted the boat was at a dock and had been closed for some time. The boat I bought had the owner living on it. While it is not always the case if someone is living on a boat often every thing works; while if it is at a dock with an absent owner things go down quickly.

The worst thing you can do to a boat is not use it. This is why a lot of boat sitting at a dock wind up having the price lowered. Batteries are not kept charged, the engine is not run and oil gets old and fuel goes bad. Sails are subject to moisture damage since they are not raised. The price being lowered over time may be more due to the boat deteriorating over time than being priced too high. The first Seawind I looked at almost for sure would have needed the joker valve replaced and maybe some of the pluming lines as well. Same for draining and cleaning the water and gas tanks. Even just turning the wheel and spinning the winches and clutches on a regular basis will make them last longer.


I would never make an offer on a boat without looking at it first. Not sure how you made your offer but normally an offer contains a clause along the lines of 'subject to survey'. Like I said my survey was much better than I expected and much better than one would expect a survey to be. The real price negotiation happens after the survey, not before you have even seen the boat.
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Old 30-01-2019, 03:48   #68
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Re: No room for negotiation?

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Really.... Well you are all living in a different world to me. Putting an offer in within 5% is not a game, but a reasonable offer, unless you normally PLAY around with almost half a million dollars?


I'll take a punt and say that a very large percentage of the boat owners who have purchased a used boat on this forum will have put in an offer less than the asking price on the boat they purchased - I know I did on my boat, as well as a friend of mine who did also.
Well I guess we do live in a different world. A world where Sailorboy, I and others currently own boats we went through the process of purchasing, as opposed to the world where one is out trying to figure out how to purchase a boat and "playing games" during the process and possibly loosing out on some very good deals and cruising time during the process. I went through the same learning curve during the purchase of our Hunter, loosing out on several Catalina sailboats during the learning game.

Yes you're right, we live in a different world.
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Old 30-01-2019, 04:44   #69
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Re: No room for negotiation?

There is always room for negotiation. The broker knows that, if the seller doesn’t. And in some countries, the broker must, by law, submit all offer. Even if not required by law, morally the broker should submit all offers.
Not to knock brokers, because there are many good brokers, a good broker will price a boat realistically, and be upfront with the seller. Yes, the broker risks the listing, but by suggesting unrealistic prices and /or values to the seller, he is risking his reputation. Good brokers are NOT used car salesmen but, unfortunately, many brokers are much worse than used car salesman.
They try to sell you a $15k car, and take $1k less.
The broker who gives other brokers a bad name, is trying to sell you a $100k boat that he knows will eventually sell for significantly less. Or a $400k boat, which is much worse. There's a significant difference between a good and bad broker. In these cases, it’s not buyer beware, it’s seller beware. Ask me how I know.
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Old 30-01-2019, 06:58   #70
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Re: No room for negotiation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShellBack89 View Post
2018 Catamaran Market Recap by Wiley Sharp

https://youtu.be/P1EaXauHjf8

https://doc-04-b4-docs.googleusercon...s5m?e=download

This report gives a break down on every Cat sold in North America. It includes what percent of asking price the boat sold for and how long it was on the market. In the YouTube video Wiley breaks it down nicely. He also includes 2017 data like the file above.
Can you re-upload the link to the report? This one is not working. Thanks!
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Old 30-01-2019, 07:01   #71
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Re: No room for negotiation?

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Can you re-upload the link to the report? This one is not working. Thanks!
Open the link to YouTube instead and the report for 2018 and 2017 are there.
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Old 30-01-2019, 07:23   #72
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Re: No room for negotiation?

Let's see if this link works.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qYs...zm9J4Rs5m/view


Click on "show more" on that TouTube vid to get the links.
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Old 30-01-2019, 08:30   #73
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Re: No room for negotiation?

I decided to post all the links here from Wiley Sharps year end market report. Thanks to Wiley and then ShellBack89 for posting the link. The problem with his link was he had downloaded it. You just needed to view it then you can download it if you like.



2018 North America Sales
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qYs...zm9J4Rs5m/view


2017 North America Sales
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OoJ...8OUU9N2rv/view


2018 Lagoon Global Sales
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nuW...rvjJhB_zJ/view


2018 FP Global Sales
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1frK...LUYko6KvF/view


2018 Leopard Global Sales
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15d-...jbEsKrf5G/view
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Old 30-01-2019, 08:37   #74
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Re: No room for negotiation?

The BUC book, and others, indeed publish Average of Actual Sold boat prices. Which implies these are the only Sold prices. Brokers are paid by commission. They are not required to submit all sales. Good brokers, the ethical ones, submit all sales. Bad brokers do not submit sales that they know will lower their future commissions.

Wiley, a decent man, talks about averages Sold prices. He’s talking of boats around $300k, and up, which is not representative of all Cat sales. He talks of only 3 manufacturers - not representative of the market either. He does not mention one-offs or older cats nor smaller cats. He doesn’t mention where he gets any of his information from. Nor does he say that these are All the Sold prices. He can’t, because whatever source(s)he uses, all sources are based on what brokers report.
That doesn’t mean that Wiley is a bad broker. Far from it. He says up front what he’s going to report on. His 5 minute video does not allow him to report all sales on all cats.
Unfortunately, bad brokers selectively submit sale prices.
That’s a fact of life in the brokerage business, a regrettable fact, but a fact nevertheless.
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Old 30-01-2019, 09:06   #75
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Re: No room for negotiation?

Keep in mind that the sold boat price report shows the asking price when the boat sold.

In many cases the seller has lowered the price one or more times before the boat sold.
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