No room for negotiation?

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by DockDoc

All good advice. I am not trying to ask for 25% off a list, and these boats are at the very top end of my allotted budget for the purchase. I need to hold in reserve money to insure and sail the damn thing, plus the inevitable repairs and routine maintenance. I don't need a lender I can just transfer the money from my account to theirs up to 450k USD. So I am a good buyer in the eyes of most sellers. I am not just kicking tires.

As for the survey, I am under the impression I make a provisional offer that is agreed upon pending X Y and Z. One of those letters is a haul out and survey plus a sea trial. I don't believe many owners or buyers would agree to "hey let me pay for a survey and then we will talk about price" before an offer had been agreed upon?

Boats as good investments... well there are ways. But I don't see the return on investments anymore as just in dollars. Having gone thru gamma knife and two neurosurgeries prior to age 40, I think of personal and shared enjoyment as a return that is not often talked about. When I am sailing, chartering, or just cruising on someone else's boat with family and friends I feel great. I am up before dawn, switch the solenoid on, get that water going for the french press, turn off the anchor light, make the coffee and head up to watch the sun come up. I make and eat breakfast with my wife and kids, and whoever else is aboard. Listen to Chris Parker, clean up and decide what we want to do today. No obligations, no timeline, no pressure. I am full of energy dawn to dusk ( okay perhaps a post scuba nap happens often) and hit the bunk at midnight (aka 8:30pm). At home, I barely can force myself out of bed by 10am, having worked until 2am the night before. I survive on coffee and daydreams until my day+night is over. I barely see my kids, couldn't tell you what color their eyes are as they never look up from those damn iPhones, and my wife who works even more than I do is less energetic than a corpse when she gets home. All that changes when we are sailing. Maybe its a pie in the sky fools fantasy but I am in a position now where I can buy my own boat, spend time with friends and family, and enjoy my life. To me, that's the best investment ever.

Well didn't mean to railroad my own post with a love of sailing + sob story. Suffice it to say I will keep bidding within my budget, see how things play out over time, and press forward with my plan.
Cheers for all the replies!

Get a Outremer!

[smj]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Reality check time. There is no typical boat sale. I just had someone tell me about a nice small older Dragonfly trimaran for a very good price. I called the guy and agreed to drive down to the boats location (maybe a 5-6 hour drive to Ft. Myers ) the next weekend to look at the boat. Next day the owner called me up and said he had a guy from New England who was flying down and was willing to pay more than the asking price; which was still a good deal. I have also looked at boats that were over priced and one at an estate sale where the broker told me if I wanted to start the motor I should bring a 12volt battery to do so; he went on to say I should make an offer since the price was negotiable.


It is just silly to say there is a rule of thumb to offer 5-10% less or 65% of the asking price. Every sale is different and some boats are well worth the asking price while others are not worth half the asking price. The trick is to be knowledge enough to determine if a boat is reasonably priced and if the seller is being reasonable about selling it.

And I’m pretty sure the buyer of the Dragonfly bought sight unseen. Yes there are boats priced to sell and they usually sell quickly at or close to selling price.

[RSH]

A LOT of catamarans are headed to the Miami Boat show right now, so I'm guessing the sellers are not super interested in entertaining less than full price offers when there will be a lot of people walking the dock wanting to buy there.

I'd say get a good buyer's broker (I can recommend one) and maybe wait until after the show if you're looking for a "deal". Although personally I don't think there are any "deals" or "steals" when it comes to catamarans.

[timeout2]

Anyone with a 450K cat is either writing it off as a second home or writing it off as a charter. They probably aren't concerned about a quick sale. "Call me when you need my signature"

[ranchero76]

Two possibilities:
1. You're not in the rush. Then keep searching, making REALISTIC from YOUR point of view offers and leave idiots with their boats and brokers alone. Right boat will pop up guaranteed, it's just a matter of time. Thousands already been manufactured since Irma, and endless amount to come.

2. You're in the rush. Then most likely you will make huge financial mistake, and these idiots along with their brokers will be laughing at you.

It might sound rough but 100% true.

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by DockDoc

I have gone 'full retard' and started making offers on Catamarans. I have made 3 different offers on Cats each with a broker listing price of above 450k USD. My offers have all been within 92-95% of list price.

So far ever offer has been met with a "they won't take less than the list price". No counter, just a flat 'nope'.
I have purchased a few things before in my life that cost a pretty penny, and without exception, there was always the list price, and then some room for negotiation, offers, counter offers etc.

Is this just a market-driven phenomenon that is unique to Catamarans, or sailboats in general? Perhaps it's the maternal Portuguese blood in me but I just can't seem to pay the asking price for something without a good haggle!

I have decided to lick my wounds, lay low until mid-February and remount an attack.

Any advice? Am I being too stubborn, foolish, naive?

I know I will get the "buy directly from the owner" advice, but that scenario is full of emotional sellers entanglements I don't want to deal with. Been there done that, no thank you.

That phenomenon is currently due to the aftermath of the storms - regardless of what brokers will tell you. Yes, cats are gaining in popularity, but we've never seen a market like this one. All the folks with insurance checks went out and cleaned out the used market, and all the charter companies put in orders for new boats to make up for all their losses. That comes straight from somebody in the business, and matches what we've seen as we've now been looking over the past 18 months, and seriously since we sold our trimaran last fall. I can remember a dealership out here that once had a dozen boats on average and in the fall had one. And some were, let's say, fix er uppers!

The worst thing you can do is get consumed by the desire and wind up paying too much, or buying a boat that isn't exactly what you want - two things I've been really tempted to do, but fortunately was talked out of by our broker.

Just like the stock market, this market will correct itself, and according to what I just heard from a sales rep and brokerage rep for one of the big 3, it's already starting. In fact I recently received one of those "special sales e-blasts" from Leopard for a brand new 40 that was priced below what they've been getting. I used to get those a couple of times a year, but they stopped a year and a half ago. A couple of months ago there were 3 used Nautitech cats available on YachtWorld on the day I searched; today there are 8.

My advice. Hang on. One of the boats you made an offer on may come through. If not, the market will start filling up again and more boats will appear. Btw...it's often rumored that the best time to buy is in the summer. People get ancy in the winter, and like you and me, ache for that boat! ;-)

Best of luck,

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by LF4

Everything that I am reading, and hearing, goes as follows:


- Find the boat
- Ask an expert for a survey
- After the survey ask what the boat is worth
- Once you know what the boat is worth, ask what they think the seller may take
- Once you have that number, offer 65% of it.


All boat owners want boats to sell high, all boat buyers want boats to sell low.

But seriously, if everyone offers low it will drag the price of the average used boat down and make sailing more affordable for the masses. The same will happen in the other direction.

That's not been our experience for the last 4 boats, or the 36' tri we just sold.

1. Find a boat that appeals; you or the broker arrange to look it over. If you can get permission to go aboard, so much the better.

2. If the boat looks like it might work, figure out your tentative offer based on the results of your surveys: boat, rigging and mechanical (oil analysis...).

3. Make the offer (they may counter); come to an agreement, fill out and sign the contract (again, based on the survey results).

4. Have the survey done. The results will drive the final price. If there are only 2 items that need repair/replacement, the owner may choose to have it done before the sale, or take off an agreed upon amount from the offer.

5. Have the work done. Finalize the deal. Sail/power away.

Regards,

[YachtBroker]

The Cat market in non chartered owners versions is indeed strong. Most of what we have had have sold close to asking price. So Prices are NOT as flexible as an excharter boat of which there is an over abundance. Lead times on new ones are 12-18 months out. Still at 90% or close to off asking price offers, the sellers should at least give you a counter even if it's $1000 off. I think it does the seller (and the buyer) a disservice to not take any offer that close to asking price seriously.

Also a lot of sellers think the market interest surges around Miami boat show time (Feb 2019) so they think there are more buyers looking around then. If you wait till mid March and those boats are still on the market you might get some more motivated sellers.

[SouthernPride]

Are they ex charter cats ?
If so they could be maxed out mortgages. The cat market is pretty good these days in terms of return. Like others have said "wait".
One thing to consider. If those cats are registered to a business offer full price for the cat with new sails, winches, or whatever you would have to replace. They get full price and the business write off. You get a boat without having to invest in many updates, etc...

[LeeV]

Originally Posted by YachtBroker

—————-snip———————-.

Also a lot of sellers think the market interest surges around Miami boat show time (Feb 2019) so they think there are more buyers looking around then. If you wait till mid March and those boats are still on the market you might get some more motivated sellers.

This is a great point that I’d forgotten to mention. Kudos to you!

We’re heading down to look at several boats. Some used boats come out of nowhere around show time for that very reason.

Regards,

[CaptainJohn49]

Why not consider a new cat? I was at the Seattle boat show over the weekend and looked at new Seawind cats. A lot of boat for the money and very little maintenance during the first years of ownership. Banks and credit unions finance these at home mortgage rates typically 4.5% in today’s market. Keep more of your money in the bank for better investments.

I have no interest in Seawind except the value was there. I personally have a Flicka and like monohulls.

CaptainJohn49

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by DockDoc

All good advice. I am not trying to ask for 25% off a list, and these boats are at the very top end of my allotted budget for the purchase. I need to hold in reserve money to insure and sail the damn thing, plus the inevitable repairs and routine maintenance. I don't need a lender I can just transfer the money from my account to theirs up to 450k USD. So I am a good buyer in the eyes of most sellers. I am not just kicking tires.

As for the survey, I am under the impression I make a provisional offer that is agreed upon pending X Y and Z. One of those letters is a haul out and survey plus a sea trial. I don't believe many owners or buyers would agree to "hey let me pay for a survey and then we will talk about price" before an offer had been agreed upon?

Boats as good investments... well there are ways. But I don't see the return on investments anymore as just in dollars. Having gone thru gamma knife and two neurosurgeries prior to age 40, I think of personal and shared enjoyment as a return that is not often talked about. When I am sailing, chartering, or just cruising on someone else's boat with family and friends I feel great. I am up before dawn, switch the solenoid on, get that water going for the french press, turn off the anchor light, make the coffee and head up to watch the sun come up. I make and eat breakfast with my wife and kids, and whoever else is aboard. Listen to Chris Parker, clean up and decide what we want to do today. No obligations, no timeline, no pressure. I am full of energy dawn to dusk ( okay perhaps a post scuba nap happens often) and hit the bunk at midnight (aka 8:30pm). At home, I barely can force myself out of bed by 10am, having worked until 2am the night before. I survive on coffee and daydreams until my day+night is over. I barely see my kids, couldn't tell you what color their eyes are as they never look up from those damn iPhones, and my wife who works even more than I do is less energetic than a corpse when she gets home. All that changes when we are sailing. Maybe its a pie in the sky fools fantasy but I am in a position now where I can buy my own boat, spend time with friends and family, and enjoy my life. To me, that's the best investment ever.

Well didn't mean to railroad my own post with a love of sailing + sob story. Suffice it to say I will keep bidding within my budget, see how things play out over time, and press forward with my plan.
Cheers for all the replies!

You just won “Post if the year award” with that one. Great post.

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Whoa. Dude. Totally unfair. He’s offering 95%. That’s not unreasonable. You’re being rude.

X2 needlessly rude.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by DockDoc

I have gone 'full retard' and started making offers on Catamarans. I have made 3 different offers on Cats each with a broker listing price of above 450k USD. My offers have all been within 92-95% of list price.

So far ever offer has been met with a "they won't take less than the list price". No counter, just a flat 'nope'.
I have purchased a few things before in my life that cost a pretty penny, and without exception, there was always the list price, and then some room for negotiation, offers, counter offers etc.

Is this just a market-driven phenomenon that is unique to Catamarans, or sailboats in general? Perhaps it's the maternal Portuguese blood in me but I just can't seem to pay the asking price for something without a good haggle!

I have decided to lick my wounds, lay low until mid-February and remount an attack.

Any advice? Am I being too stubborn, foolish, naive?

I know I will get the "buy directly from the owner" advice, but that scenario is full of emotional sellers entanglements I don't want to deal with. Been there done that, no thank you.

This seems like automatic initial response.
Question is who blinks first.
Write polite thank you response and suggest that you will be happy to continue if their position becomes more flexible.
Usually the will come back to you after some time.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by LF4

Everything that I am reading, and hearing, goes as follows:


- Find the boat
- Ask an expert for a survey
- After the survey ask what the boat is worth
- Once you know what the boat is worth, ask what they think the seller may take
- Once you have that number, offer 65% of it.


All boat owners want boats to sell high, all boat buyers want boats to sell low.

But seriously, if everyone offers low it will drag the price of the average used boat down and make sailing more affordable for the masses. The same will happen in the other direction.

No, that's not how it works. You and others apparently have a lot to learn. Some boats are priced right for a quick sale, and a well-educated buyer should be able to recognize one that's well-equipped and priced right from the fixer-upper basket cases that are languishing at the bottom of the market.

The cheaply priced boat isn't usually the best deal, it's the ones that are sail away ready that should be attracting interest, but don't expect much negotiation on those. I for one, quickly loose patience for bottom feeder type buyers who can't recognize value. If I was to receive a 65% offer, I wouldn't even waste my time responding to that buyer ever again..