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Old 03-07-2017, 01:28   #61
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Americas Cup attracts tourists yes ?
I rest my case. [emoji12]
As for Liahona plans I'd just like to have a set to add to my Crowther tri set for posterity, I've asked Boatcraft Pacific and they said no, so I put the word out in forums when the topic comes up. I don't need hard copy though that would be nice, PDF scans would do fine. [emoji106]
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Old 03-07-2017, 01:30   #62
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Since I'm here, I have Buccaneer 24 and 28 but would love 33' and 36' also. [emoji2]
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Old 04-07-2017, 04:03   #63
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Certainly if speed was a part of your decision making you should be looking closer at tri's, for they offer a greater displacement length ratio and so on the same displacement will be substantially longer. Given the hull speed is quite dependent on waterline length, the boat will be faster on the same drive, be it sail or power.

For some reason though, some people seem unhappy with that and want to press the envelope somewhat further in the 'need for speed'. What are the signs that this is important?

If you look at the quite young developments in power trimarans, they lack much beam at all. We see hulls similar to sailboat tri beam length dimensions and the same for the sponsons, but the overall beam is quite less. Thus far the record shows us that this appears to be a safe practice. But one should be aware that too much athwartships superstructure could invite other risks by pressing the sponson too hard, something that seems thus far not to have appeared.

At the same time is also usual for sailing tri's to be beamier than related cats, and theres the telling reasoning, theyre beamier because they need to be. Because they have a need to keep wetted surface of the sponson low to reduce speed killing drag, it needs to be further out to defend the moment against it.

I think it was Norwood who proposed that tris could have more slender sponsons that were longer than the hull (which would mean less OA beam), but I cant think of an instance were this was attempted.

You could say that the greater speed of sailing tri's offers opportunities for greater planing lift at the leeward sponson, but we still need to recognise that the sponsons planing area and buoyancy is substantially less than a cats and add another risk.

If the profile of the sponson exhibits lift when immersed chances are good it will recover, but most often they have flatter topsides and curved undersides, an emulation of an inverted airfoil, a profile that will dive rather than recover. The designer needs to be aware that the dynamic lift from planing the hull overcomes the submerged hulls want to dive.

Other positions one could take on tri's vs cats would include, the cross beam issues that plagued racing tri's a few decades ago seem to be resolved, that the mast placement progressing deep into the hull is stronger than that afforded cats, and less topsides and hull profile means theyre less likely to be pressed as much by the wind.

Design is always a mix of attributes, if you start from different positions to attempt to achieve more or less the same things, you need to decide which method is more compromised for what 'you' expect to be able to do.

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Old 04-07-2017, 08:40   #64
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

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The trimaran concept, wedding a monohull to amas with no living space in them, seems to have found its niche in smaller, sometimes-trailerable racers, rather than cruising boats; but cruising boats are the lion's share of the market. I mean, a tri is basically a cat with a monohull replacing the bridge deck and no livable space in its outriggers. Tris as a niche are fast and exciting, and attract monohull sailors who love them for the pure sailing of them. But for cruising? The much LARGER tris that have been built look more like cats with submersible bridge decks.


I want to clear up one misconception. It's simply not true that all trimarans have a smaller living space compared to catamarans, or that cats have a bridgedeck while trimarans don't. It depends on the model. There are some catamarans without a bridgedeck (the SIG 45 comes to mind). There are some trimarans with a bridgedeck, such as the Neel 45 that several people have mentioned. Then there are some tris that have a partial bridgedeck, such as Norman Cross.

What you aren't going to see is the folding arms of a Dragonfly on a trimaran with a bridgedeck, at least I don't see how that would be possible. But neither cats or monos are going to be able to fold up either.

On trimarans that do have a bridgedeck, the interior space just blows the mind. Since the Neel tris don't use the center hull as living space, it frees it up as a tremendous storage locker. And this is in addition to the already enormous amount of space in the amas. Like catamarans, you get a great view outside while sitting in the salon. But unlike catamarans, you also get a spectacular view outside while lying in your own bed. That's a huge quality of life improvement. The real problem is parking the damn thing, it's 28 feet wide!
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Old 04-07-2017, 14:46   #65
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

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That's not a Newick tri, but a Shuttleworth.
Shame to see her sit in such a sad state for so many years!
I'm not sure if it's the same boat, but the description matches one we saw there in the mid '90's.
It was only visited by pelicans and the occasional swimmer from the beach, but it was the start of my love affair with multi's.
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Old 04-07-2017, 16:12   #66
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

I fully understand that the beam of a non - folding tri is a deterrent for anyone keeping the boat in a marina, the fees are astronomical for a slender mono

For me, that's a non issue since I have 2-3 nights in marina during the last five years, don't embrace the feeling of getting settled I what for me feels like an apartment building. Of course we live onboard full time, so a different story altogether. We like cruising in remote areas, and the ability of tri to dry out on a bean, and with the help of some tidal action careen and even do Antifouling is amphorae interesting feature. The light weight, making a OB propulsion feasible norther huge advantage. A totally acceptable trade off for some more sparse accommodation at least in warm climates.

The down side is purchase price,for the most part for me and the fct that windvane steering as Fraser I understand is not quite up to the quick changes I boat speed and apparent wind angle.

Ada what else? What are the weak points, structurally on a trimaran?

Beam attachment to either the a as or the vaka comes to mind....anything else?

Everybody talks of capsizes, though those shuldnt be too hard to avoid, with some prudence for a non racing user, what else is known regarding failure modes?
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Old 04-07-2017, 16:25   #67
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

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Originally Posted by svrodeorm View Post
I fully understand that the beam of a non - folding tri is a deterrent for anyone keeping the boat in a marina, the fees are astronomical for a slender mono

For me, that's a non issue since I have 2-3 nights in marina during the last five years, don't embrace the feeling of getting settled I what for me feels like an apartment building. Of course we live onboard full time, so a different story altogether. We like cruising in remote areas, and the ability of tri to dry out on a bean, and with the help of some tidal action careen and even do Antifouling is amphorae interesting feature. The light weight, making a OB propulsion feasible norther huge advantage. A totally acceptable trade off for some more sparse accommodation at least in warm climates.

The down side is purchase price,for the most part for me and the fct that windvane steering as Fraser I understand is not quite up to the quick changes I boat speed and apparent wind angle.

Ada what else? What are the weak points, structurally on a trimaran?

Beam attachment to either the a as or the vaka comes to mind....anything else?

Everybody talks of capsizes, though those shuldnt be too hard to avoid, with some prudence for a non racing user, what else is known regarding failure modes?
Structurally trimarans are easier to build than catamarans. The beams are shorter, the mast is pressing down on the keel not a beam at mid-span, most of the mass is centrally located. It I simply certainly possible to have a specific design have problems but across the design it really isn't a problem.

Probably the biggest issue with trimarans is they are expensive when compared by interior living space and load carrying capacity. On the flip side I tend to want to include the entire usable exterior as part of the living accommodations, which makes them pretty cheap by the square foot. But still don't have much carrying capacity.
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Old 04-07-2017, 18:01   #68
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Newick used to say tris can be expensive by the bunk but are cheap by the knot.

Tris are pretty sorted out these days. Monos breaking keel bolts have had more serious consequences in the last couple years and more cats have been capsized than tris in the cruising realm. Some of this comes down to the numbers but a tri gives more warning than a cat as it begins to be overpressed because of the larger heel angle. It is worth checking out the EU stability formula for multihulls, they worked out that they need to count beam over all not hulls.

Most issues are maintenance related on any boat. Stiffer craft need a closer eye on the rigging and folders need to keep an eye on the pivoting hardware.

An interesting comparison is with a minimal sized cruising mono like the Pardeys' Seraffyn. 24' and over 10,000 pounds loaded with a 80 - 100 mile day average. A minimum Tri for a couple will be in the low to mid 30' range and be several thousand pounds lighter. The mileage can be set around 150 a day so it needs fewer stores for the same passage. It will heel less, be drier if it has a wing deck and have more room than the minimum mono. To get an idea of resources used for a boat they are better compared by the pound but a marina will charge by the foot. The solution there is to anchor out. After all with shorter passages you'll be spending more time in destinations anyway so should economize.
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Old 04-07-2017, 18:22   #69
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

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Originally Posted by senormechanico View Post
I'm not sure if it's the same boat, but the description matches one we saw there in the mid '90's.
It was only visited by pelicans and the occasional swimmer from the beach, but it was the start of my love affair with multi's.
This is the trimaran I refer to, that I have personally seen sitting, deteriorating at anchor, in the La Paz Magote, every year since 2011 (and probably from before that...).

Shuttleworth Design - DAMIANA
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Old 05-07-2017, 02:43   #70
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

I own a large (well, large to me) cruising trimaran. I agree they are indeed hard to find... and nearly impossible to find in turn-key condition.

What I love most about my trimaran:

#1 SAFETY. Cruising tri's are, by design, more inherently stable than their cat counterparts. It would take nearly 30 degrees of heel to flip a tri. It's more like 12 degrees on most cruising cats. I've never seen more than 5 degrees of heel on my tri. 2 deg is more the norm I see. But then I never fly a hull and I'm fine with 8-9 kts cruising speeds.

#2 SPACE. Mine has massive amount of deck space. I can store 3 dinghies on the deck and not even notice it. They're stored way out of the normal pathways. Then I still have the massive nets, as well as 3 sets of davits on the stern if I need to add more space

#3 flat water sailing, virtually no rocking in any anchorage. The boat is like a rock even in 30 kts of wind when at anchor.

#4 livable ama's. My ama's have as much room as a small studio apartment, Each one has massive amounts of closet and storage space, it's own private entrance, it's own ensuite lav and shower and of course a massive queen size berth. This allows me to give me guests ultimate privacy while reserving the aka (main hull) for entertaining, cooking and of course the owner's v-berth forward. There is also a hugh aft cabin but I keep that as my office/ workshop. Which keeps clutter down to a minimum in the main cabin and pilot house.

#5 Enclosed pilot house. My tri has a pilot house that keeps me dry despite the roughest and wettest of passages as well we out of the sun when it's blazing hot outside. It has both hard windows that open as well as stratoglass windows that roll up for ventilation when it's not raining. Because the pilot house is set way aft by design, very few waves ever reach the pilot house even if beating to windward in a

#6 Storage. Perhaps an achilles heel for trimarans is the massive amount of storage, something that can cause an owner to weigh down the boat. But I am strategic about it's use and this allows me to move bulky items off the deck and into cavernous storage lockers of which there are 7.

To each his own with respect to boating. I don't think any one boat is better than any other all around. You give up something to get something in every design and ownership equation. But I have never been so pleasantly surprised at what I get with this boat, speed comfort, upwind tracking, peace at anchor, than I have with the many other boats I've owned over the years. And I say that coming from a pretty hardcore monohull background.

There's nothing really wrong with my boat, per se, I can leave on 60-day passage on her tomorrow if I wanted. So she doesn't really need refit in the traditional sense of the word. However, in November we're taking her to the Philippines for some upgrading to add some of the more modern accoutrements that new production cats have so that we can enjoy her a bit more on my 20 yr global cruising adventure. We'll be raising the mast 38", adding a huge fiberglass canopy that will extend from the mast base to the stern, thereby allowing us to improve the pilot house setup to a modern more open design style, as well as a few tweaks to the cabin to allow for easier ingress/ egress from amas to the main hull. We think the project will take 8 mos but I've put aside 1.5 yrs for it, due to possible overruns (we all know how that goes). When all is said and done I'll have a boat that is every bit as comfortable as a 2017 production cat in the same size class but at 1/8th the price.

We all know boating is an expensive hobby/ past time. So I think the challenge for most of us is how to accomplish all that desire we have to get on the water and explore, while balancing out the fiscal insanity of being a boat owner.
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:11   #71
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Captaingregger

That's great but what design and size ?
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:17   #72
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

I am glad you like your Tristar - they are commodious tris.

You have to be careful talking of capsize and heel. Tris usually have a lower CG which means they can heel more (probably about 70 degrees) before becoming negatively stable. A cat may be a few degrees less but it depends on bridgedeck height and loading. What we do know is that both tri and cats are on the wrong side of the stability curve once the tris main hull, and the cats windward hull, lifts.

One area that tris do better, and worse, than cats is with rotational momentum. The lighter extremities of most tris means that they have less rotational momentum. Cats on the other hand with two weighty hulls at the extreme beam have more. This is one reason tris are more nimble. It is also one reason why tris are more prone to wave capsize when abeam to waves. Think of having 10kg of weight at the centre of a pole. You can wiggle it easily, Put two 5kg weights at each end and rotating the pole becomes much harder.

James Wharram once got confused when talking of tris vs cats. He said that because some racing tris heel at anchor it makes them closer to capsizing. In reality you just have to go back to a diagram showing the CG and CB. The higher initial heel of a tri makes little difference to the CG and CB so it still takes the same amount of rotation to capsize a tri with a high float as one with the float in the water

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Old 05-07-2017, 03:36   #73
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

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In larger lengths over somewhere around 30ft theyre less stable than a cat due to less buoyancy in the leeward hull. Which at the very least makes them more tender but also more likely to capsize. In particular in beam on sea where the righting moment is reduced to 1/2 that of a cat. And where the submerged leeward hull can push under the boat around the main hull axis and the weather sponson may be rising on a wave adding to rollover forces. But in shorter lengths, say less than 30ft they generally are kinda spartan in accommodation being rather long and narrow.

Their niche might be the boats not intended to sleep or shelter more than a suffering few, or for weekends. Also boats intended for more or less off the beach or trailer boats, where they just seem better able to cope with setting up rigging and by folding or collapsing sponsons.
I call BS (to the portion I bolded) -- you're making this up or you read some pseudo science somewhere. Show me the calcs. Buoyancy in the amas is a design - specific thing and should not be generalized. Racing tri's and cruising/sport tris (such as the Dragonfly boats) have adequate ama buoyancy that renders your statement untrue.

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quick note, Im not fond of the mono-cat and now apparently tri debates either, but some things are not refutable

read Wharrams unsafe in any sea

his notion is that the surface speeds of waves differ between the leading and trailing sides of the wave peak. The slower lee side holds or brakes the sponson, while the weather side sponson is lifted on the rising cresting faster moving leading front of the wave. Rotating the boat about its CG.

How far that goes is dependent the force of wind and water, in the worst cases beyond a point of no return it trips the boat over, but clearly the tri's defenses (with less outboard buoyancy on its lee) are less. Hence a greater propensity to roll.

Things that can make a difference?
the position and deployment of lifting keels.
the cross section form of the hulls, also as to grip. Where you want the lee side to forgive, ride up and lift.

I have no idea what you think you mean by 'you not only have center of buoyancy but the center of gravity to consider' which is the same in both cases. The margin lay at the comparing the extremes where sponson volume/buoyancy of a tri is less.
"Grip"? I have no idea what that's about. Yes, all hulls have some drag, but to cite about the difference in water speed between a wave's windward and lee side as a capsize factor from hull drag is incredible.

I've owned 3 Dragonfly tri's (a 920, 100, and 1200) since 2001 and I think your two posts above sound implausible. Warram might be misunderstood, misquoted, or perhaps he was just wrong if he wrote that. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I don't think the views you expressed should go unchallenged.
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:50   #74
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

As I wrote above, I've owned 3 Dragonfly tri's (a 920, 100, and 1200) since 2001. Prior to that I have about 15 years of mono sail ownership experience.

Yes tris do involve compromises and trade-offs (as all boats do) but every time I consider switching to a cat or mono, I come back to the fact that it will probably involve a step down in sailing performance.

I'm going to be brand-specific (Dragonfly) not because I want to promote the builder, but because generalities often fall apart when you bring in differing design goals and philosophies
...

What my Dragonfly tris do that monos and cats don't do as well:
  1. Dragonfly Trimarans give you enough feel to know how hard the boat is being pressed (heeling no more than 5-10 degrees) while keeping the boat level enough to be comfortable.
  2. Dragonfly Trimarans provide a good balance between interior comfort, interior aesthetic "warmth", and weight.
  3. Dragonfly Trimarans provide a good compromise between "sport boat" performance and cruising comfort.
  4. Dragonfly Trimarans amas are in the water at rest, so rocking at anchor is dampened. No drama at anchor in a beam sea.
  5. Dragonfly quality is better than most other production multihulls
Cats - better interior volume and accommodation for humans than a tri, but if you make it light enough to perform on par with a tri you also make it more spartan, and when pressed hard -- the cat's overall lack of heeling up to the point nearing capsize makes it very difficult for most sailors to judge where a level of danger may be.
There are few production cats built light enough to perform as well as a production tri.
Most cats are built as cruising cats, and are so heavy the performance is designed out of them. Lots of "systems", berths, heads, stone counter surfaces, tankage, twin diesels, gensets, huge battery banks, and 200+ feet of chain turn a cat into a dog.

Monos - less expensive to buy, better interior volume and accommodation for humans than a tri (for equivalent length).
Do mono sailors really enjoy rocking 30+ degrees at anchor from a wake or swell, or rolling downwind in a seaway, or bracing against the cockpit seats on a beam reach? No, it just goes with the territory.
You're limited to "hull speed" and not much more (unless you're over-canvassed, or a planing race boat) and after that, more sail or wind just means more healing.

They all have their appeal, and so do power boats. But you need to choose based on what's most important to you. Price, comfort, performance, cruising vs. daysailing, single-hander or couple or family are all factors. using in harbor, bay, ocean? Again, different design factors.

Let's not forget that in general small sailing boats are more sailing fun than larger ones... and faster sailing boats are more sailing fun than slower ones.
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:12   #75
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

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I call BS (to the portion I bolded) -- you're making this up or you read some pseudo science somewhere. Show me the calcs. Buoyancy in the amas is a design - specific thing and should not be generalized. Racing tri's and cruising/sport tris (such as the Dragonfly boats) have adequate ama buoyancy that renders your statement untrue.
'adequate' isnt really the same thing and definitely doesnt describe stability, just ask yourself this question:

'between a trimaran and a catamaran, which is likely to lift a hull first?
'

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailFastTri
"Grip"? I have no idea what that's about. Yes, all hulls have some drag, but to cite about the difference in water speed between a wave's windward and lee side as a capsize factor from hull drag is incredible.
grip: keels grip the water slowing sideways progression. There was a one time quite an argument running about Macalpine-Downie Iroquois Catamarans which had a few go over (if anyone feels they can supply some history), some discussion reigned that the keel deployment was critical on one hull or the other was critical.

IROQUOIS 30 MKII sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com


waves: have velocity, within a wave the forward force measured linearly isnt constant its simply not possible for it to be so. The ramp up a wave is a gentler slope than the crest falling off the top, so linearly its slower on the steeper falling backside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailFastTri
I've owned 3 Dragonfly tri's (a 920, 100, and 1200) since 2001 and I think your two posts above sound implausible. Warram might be misunderstood, misquoted, or perhaps he was just wrong if he wrote that. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I don't think the views you expressed should go unchallenged.
unchallenged you say
ok since you probably wont be happy with my choices, choose 2 boats a tri and a cat of the same class of boat suitable for cruising for which you supply weights, lines plans and dimensions and lets figure it out

'Wharram's paper was published in 1991, and is available from him named 'the Stable Multihull', or unless someone has a copy of that or the papers original name 'Unsafe in Any Sea'

https://www.wharram.com/site/catalog...on-2-technical

now have at it, and call BS all you like
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