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Old 19-04-2022, 14:39   #196
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

This is more along the lines of the stern entrance way I am hoping to work with a manufacturer to deliver. I want two doors side by side. I have experience with doors aboard a vessel failing. We had to break down the door to get into the engine room on a trip from Hawaii to Canada when the door mechanism failed.

I really like this step up to help prevent water from shipping in. My plan is to reinforce the wall on the inside using vertical panels so that when it is slammed with force everything holds.

If this looks more along the lines of steel trawler...well I am seriously going to Patagonia with this vessel and fully expect to be in seas hanging on to a Jordan Series Drogue waiting ready for the occasional wave from the stern.

The Rapido 60 is also in my sites. However, the living area is very small compared to the 0 Yacht Class 6. Further the Rapido 60 doesn't have the anchor deploy I am looking for. This said their vessel is about 1/2 the cost of the 0 Yacht Class 6.

The reason I am wanting to work with a manufacturer and their existing molds is when I am ready to pull the trigger I want a build time in under 12 months.
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Old 19-04-2022, 18:36   #197
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdazey View Post
Well I'll bite.

And finally (best for last?):
Paradox -
Joe and Sue, I looked up the words Paradox and Trimaran and found some really interesting information.

https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/researc...ne%20at%20that.

Nigel Irens reworked the molds of an OMRA 60 class vessel to make one with a shorter mast, larger main body, and more narrow beam.

The result was a vessel more along the dimensions of my old vessel...but much faster. I would need to take the Paradox concept a step further. Instead of tillers I would certainly need autopilot and a wheel helm. I would drop the main sail further. I love a big head sail so likely would keep the mast at 75ft.

In the photo below, the Paradox is to the right and I likely would want a main no larger than the Paradox shown on the first reef.

I have been tracking OMRA 60 trimaran prices for kicks and giggles. These vessels now sell for about $200k. They are living their retirement lives hauling tourists in Hawaii and Phuket. Well come to think of it so is my old vessel...but at least I sold mine for more money.

Perhaps one of these older OMRA 60 beasts could serve as parts to build the slower big cruising trimaran I am seeking.

I am just thinking aloud here. If I purchased a cheap OMRA 60 I would have the aka and ama to work with and scrap the wa'a'. Sure keep the giant mast for looks and then just fly something comfortable. So many people ribbed me about my slow and safe mast on my trimaran that it is worth something to me to keep them quiet. They can then just image my vessel flying sails that I would never raise.

60 feet as you can see in the OMRA 60 is way too short as you can see from the photo attached. It is probably one of the reasons this class was scrapped as a whole and all of them are so cheap. Some of these are real junk. Their aka look like a simple pole.

So working along the lines that Nigel started. Again I am just musing.

1. Find an OMRA 60 with very well designed structural aka and ama.
2. Blow the walls of the main hull outward.
3. Reinforce the keel to support a main engine room and add a centrally mounted 240 hp Yanmar.
4. Add new fuel tanks, water tanks, watermaker, and decent accommodations with port holes for lighting.
5. Add about 15-20 ft to the total length by extending the stern outward.

The final beam would remain just under 60 feet.
Central hull 75-80 ft and 20-22 ft wide at the stern tapering to the front.

There are so many things I learned from owning and living aboard my vessel for 10 plus years that I need to fix.

For example, I now know to not place any sleeping quarters aft of the engine room. Therefore, aft of the engine room would be the galley, music room, and a large dining area across the stern. Below the central table would be the main rudder mounts and hydraulic steering.
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Old 19-04-2022, 18:47   #198
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

There is a good reason to keep the 60 foot beam of the OMRA 60 when doing this conversion. The dinghy needs to be mounted on davits that hang from the aka. There needs to be enough clearance between the ama and the wa'a for the dinghy with motor to hang securely.

Catamaran owners don't have this problem since there is enough clearance between their two ama and no central hull to worry about.

The previous owners of my vessel learned the hard way that a 40 foot beam is too narrow. When the dinghy started swaying back and forth, the prop knocked damaged the hull and knocked out a port light. As a consequence despite having such a large sailing vessel I found it easier to just kayak to the vessel and haul the kayak up.

It was just too much work to remove the engine and store it to make sure the hull isn't damaged.
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Old 19-04-2022, 19:02   #199
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Same reason I wouldnít want a quadmaran or quintmaran .
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Old 20-04-2022, 04:33   #200
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

I posted pics of the quad cat way back if anyone wants to have a look. It's in here somewhere.
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Old 20-04-2022, 04:36   #201
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Found a very grainy vid of the QuadCat 28.
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Old 20-04-2022, 04:58   #202
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

The Tri Hull built in Vietnam is danang cheap.
Cats take a whole new skill set to build or sail. Iím surprised they are popular TBH but they do have two skinny hulls to use.
The Tri has one skinny Hull and 2 useless outriggers. Might be great to race but appeal to cruising families nope. In this town if you want to take up 2 slips to park your car you are going to pay for 2 slips.
I donít think there are 10 cruising Cats on the Great Lakes. Of the 2,000 boats on the island there are 2.
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Old 20-04-2022, 06:02   #203
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Rum, I'm not sure what Vietnamese tri you are claiming in cheap. Corsair and Rapido are built there and neither is cheap. All the Corsairs fold as do the R40 and R50 so moorage isn't a major issue. Non Vietnamese built Dragonfly's and Farriers also fold btw. The outriggers (amas) are useful for storage, lots of it. And the main hull isn't that skinny but the acreage topsides makes up for it. Have you ever been on a tri?
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Old 20-04-2022, 06:38   #204
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

So I slept on the idea. The problem is this is looking more feasible the more I look at it. I found another OMRA 60 for sale for a song. The cost to build the aka, mast, ama, and sails of a big trimaran far far far exceed the cost to buy a decent OMRA 60. Recutting existing sails is cheap cheap cheap. I did it in the Philippines for my vessel and the results were a fraction the cost of new sails made in Thailand.

I am just rough estimating here that the total investment to end up with a 80 ft long trimaran with a beam of 60 feet built to my specifications will fall in the neighborhood of $2mm. That is about the same cost of a new build on a 60 ft catamaran that doesn't have what I am looking for.

Attached is a picture of an OMRA 60 flying both the ama and the wa'a. I will have to do a lot of compromising to refit one for cruising. For example the ama compared to my old vessel are simply tiny. I could fit crew quarters and heads in my two ama. They stored dozens of lines and all my sails. The buoyancy of the ama on the OMRA 60 barely supports the weight of the vessel.

Further I had 18 huge self draining storage compartments built into the aka. I utilized these areas to store about 1000 liters of gasoline, diesel, extra water, coolers for ice, the portable generator. There is zip zero nada available storage in the aka of OMRA 60.

All the storage space I am used to in a big cruising trimaran will have to be incorporated into the wa'a of a conversion.

You can see a key difference when Jay Kantola designed the wa'a of my old trimaran as seen during haulout. It widens out quite quickly. This offered tons of front space and buoyancy. There was a chain locker large enough to fit a person and 200 meters of chain. That was followed by a buffer area that could fit three spare anchors and all the rubbish from a Pacific crossing. Following that was a crash wall.

The other difference is Kantola appears to have been striving for the wa'a to plane. Having cleaned that hull hundreds of times, I was well aware of how much of it was almost flat. Certainly the narrow sharp wa'a of the OMRA 60 wasn't intended to plane. Instead to obtain speed they needed to fly both an ama and the wa'a.

I found a paper on how the shape of the wa'a can accomplish a planing trimaran.

https://onepetro.org/ISOPEIOPEC/proc...I-19-416/21485

Unlike the researchers that wrote this paper, Kantola designed the wa'a based upon his experience and not computer modeling. Under full sail using the 79 foot mast, the Kantola trimaran peak speed was in the low 20's. I was still getting over 12 knots on my very cut down mast using just a head sail. My target speed on a OMRA 60 conversion to cruising trimaran would be about 15 knots. I would keep that giant mast just for the head sail under light winds and for show.

I am in agreement with what Nigel did when remaking this design. He eliminating the front bow spirit and I would do the same. There is something I also see in the photograph of this particular OMRA 60. Notice the second rigging line on the forward aka. It looks like much of the forward pull on the mast comes from this line. My rigging only featured a single line to the wa'a.

There would be significant modifications to the dagger boards and rudders. I am thinking along the lines of moving everything to the wa'a. Further, unlike Kantola's very long racing style hydrofoil rudder, I would likely utilize two shorter rudders that would be set about 1/2 a cord apart. This double rudder system would give me some piece of mind and allow me to haul out easier.

Another thing you can see on the haulout photos from Kantola's design are the four davits mounted on the aka. One of those davits had to be rebuilt when the dinghy was caught with the plug in during a down pour. You can also just barely see the port light on the main hull that was stove in by the propeller. I mentioned earlier despite the size of my vessel, this design flaw and the narrow room to fit a dinghy between the wa'a and ama was one reason I found it easier to just use a kayak to reach my vessel. With a wider beam, there would be no problem fitting a dinghy with engine on davits.

I just confirmed the yard I have in mind for a conversion and where I hauled out last would have no problem fitting this beast into one of their two bays.
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Old 20-04-2022, 07:13   #205
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Was an Aussie company making the boats in Vietnam. Yes compared to a mono hull cheap. Pretty sure it was Corsair.
Had a weekend boat interior.
2M for 60’ of anything is a very low price
The Beneteau First 53 hits that loaded. A Hanse 508 listed at 1.35M at the 2019 boat show. Plywood open end grain everywhere.
Does a Tri run one motor.
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Old 20-04-2022, 08:19   #206
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Hi PBMaise,


You have an interesting exercise here. I do have a couple of thoughts:


1. Avoid trying to replicate the Kantola. As you mentioned, there would be a lot of compromises.


2. In light air, the righting moment won't be a problem, but in heavy air and with a heavier main hull, the amas will be loaded to the point of submerging. This was an approach that some of the early Aus/NZ designers tried many decades ago with the thought that submerged amas would give the sailor warning of possible capsize.. Results were not favorable. I might consider glassing an extra layer of foam on the amas to increase buoyancy.


3. Given your modest speed expectations, there should be no issue with the reduced sail area.


4. This project is on a scale far beyond my experience. You have that experience and apparently the resources and will to make it happen. I'm very impressed.


5. Paradox/Shockwave provides a good model of what can be accomplished starting from the ORMA 60 platform. I'd be starting from there rather than the Kantola.


As an aside, there's an Antrim 40, Angela, for sale in Lumut. Do you know anything about it?



Cheers,
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Old 20-04-2022, 08:44   #207
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumrace View Post
Was an Aussie company making the boats in Vietnam. Yes compared to a mono hull cheap. Pretty sure it was Corsair.
Had a weekend boat interior.
2M for 60í of anything is a very low price
The Beneteau First 53 hits that loaded. A Hanse 508 listed at 1.35M at the 2019 boat show. Plywood open end grain everywhere.
Does a Tri run one motor.
Rumrace, very very few trimarans have anything except one engine. That is why picking a dependable engine that can be serviced anywhere you sail is so important. Further protecting that prop behind strong fixed dagger boards is something I find very important. That plus having a spare propeller aboard. I didn't even learn of the last time my propeller struck something until I arrived in port and was cleaning the bottom.

Note: Be careful when buying a prop in countries like Thailand and SE Asia. Frequently these props simply do not contain the quality metals of an American or European prop that can be hammered back into place. The metal shop that beat my prop back into place was surprised since they said any locally supplied prop would have shattered.

The Aussier firm making boats in Vietnam is Rapido. A used Rapido 60 foot trimaran is on the market now for 3/4 mm. I do like the vessels to a degree. It certainly would be a lot less expensive than buying an OMRA 60 and remaking it into a cruising vessel.
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Old 20-04-2022, 08:46   #208
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Here is one of the few pictures of the main daggerboard aboard my Jay Kantola trimaran.

I am pretty sure this picture was taken after a foot of it was installed. Overall it weighed about 250 lbs. That is James BTW. He gathered some bamboo from his family property to help raise the line leading to the mast so I could get a good lifting angle.

There was a fourth hydrofoils below the main hull after the owner decided to modify Kantola's design.

1. The main dagger board shown in the photo was enclosed in a double walled trunk. The total thickness of this trunk as seen from inside the vessel was about 12 inches.

2. A fixed hydrofoil containing two cutlass bearings that supported the propeller and shaft.

3. The main rudder that stood nearly a little over 6 feet high. I should mention that this would built with two crushable sections. The important section was near the top. If the rudder ever struck something, the theory was the rudder would crush between the hull and rudder before it broke thru.

4. The fourth hydrofoil was located below the cockpit and extended down into the engine room. The double trunk occupied much of the engine room. This second dagger board was supposed to be retractable however, it became a real pain in the rear when someone appears to have dropped a bolt in the cock pit. The bolt lodged between the dagger board and trunk wall. I wasted days and days trying to get that bolt removed and the dagger board to move again. I finally just ended up cutting the board flush with the surface of the cockpit and glassing it over. The net result is this hydrofoil extended below the vessel only about 2.5 feet.

For almost a decade I rarely moved the big dagger board. I left that one extending down about 3 feet below the hull. It was just too dang difficult to pull it upward because the pulling angle needed to match the angle of the trunk. Once it was down past 3 feet, I was always afraid I would have it stuck down there extending 6 to 7 feet below the hull.

Based upon my experiences I am thinking along the lines of using fixed dagger boards on this possible future new big trimaran. I would gain the lost trunk space.

Like I mentioned in the other post, to obtain leverage from the rudder, I would go with a split rudder design separated by 1/2 a cord length and far shorter than Kantola's design.
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Old 20-04-2022, 09:17   #209
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdazey View Post
Hi PBMaise,


You have an interesting exercise here. I do have a couple of thoughts:


1. Avoid trying to replicate the Kantola. As you mentioned, there would be a lot of compromises.


2. In light air, the righting moment won't be a problem, but in heavy air and with a heavier main hull, the amas will be loaded to the point of submerging. This was an approach that some of the early Aus/NZ designers tried many decades ago with the thought that submerged amas would give the sailor warning of possible capsize.. Results were not favorable. I might consider glassing an extra layer of foam on the amas to increase buoyancy.


3. Given your modest speed expectations, there should be no issue with the reduced sail area.


4. This project is on a scale far beyond my experience. You have that experience and apparently the resources and will to make it happen. I'm very impressed.


5. Paradox/Shockwave provides a good model of what can be accomplished starting from the ORMA 60 platform. I'd be starting from there rather than the Kantola.


As an aside, there's an Antrim 40, Angela, for sale in Lumut. Do you know anything about it?



Cheers,
Hi Joe and Sue

Thank you for the suggestions. Yes, a conversion of a ORMA 60 will be quite a different animal than a 65 ft Kantola. As I am beginning this thought exercise I am surprised again and again how well thought out my vessel was. I place Peter Hughes and Crowther along side Kantola too.

I was just laughing again at that photograph of the ORMA 60 flying both the ama and wa'a and thinking to myself...does the seller actually think that photograph is a selling feature?

The approach to building vessels in Europe in my opinion makes for completely unsafe sailing in the big seas I want to go.

Time and again I am googling very strange things like "catamaran bow pulpit".

I wasn't even in a typhoon. It was just a big blow when I had to be sitting on my bow pulpit with a 75 kg Rocna digging a trench. I am not getting on a big trimaran again unless I have both 75 kg Rocna AND more importantly 100 meters of 1/2 chain. The 100 meters of 3/8 chain was not adequate to stop my trimaran.

Regarding adding floatation to the ama of a OMRA 60. I was thinking along the lines of trying to keep the central wa'a wet on all points of sail to provide flotation. The only thing I am thinking of flying at one time is the weather ama. Part of the reason for this is needing to gain some head space in the quarters. The wa'a will simply have to ride in the water deeper than the existing wa'a.

Regarding the trimaran in Lumut.

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/201...im-40-7496784/

I thought this vessel was at the RLYC.

It certainly is a big price for a vessel in Malaysia. However, the vessel looks well thought out. Further it would likely fetch that price if it was on the California coast or Europe. She will not likely find a buyer in Langkawi at that price.

There are several cats in the 40 foot range for the same price. Here are just 2.
https://yachts.apolloduck.com/boat/l...or-sale/672262
https://yachts.apolloduck.com/boat/f...or-sale/693254


and this one for $85k
https://yachts.apolloduck.com/boat/s...or-sale/638122
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Old 23-04-2022, 07:29   #210
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Today I came across a photo on McConaghy's website and it sure looks similar to the lines I am thinking. Unlike these ORMA 60's that look like they are missing a back end, the central hull of this one extends way past the rear aka.

Notice also in this photo how the central hull appears to be taller than the central hull of a typical ORMA 60.



This is very much unlike the production trimaran made by McConaghy that is called the tri53.

https://www.mcconaghyboats.com/finn53

The tri53 looks like a slightly smaller version of the ORMA 60 that is missing a backend.

I have progressed a little further my idea of buying an ORMA60 and removing the middle hull, and then replacing it with a wider, heavier, and longer planing hull.

The concept of a planing hull has quite a lot of discussion on boards and I found several claims it is possible to have a planing hull on a trimaran.
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