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Old 12-03-2018, 19:05   #136
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

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Thanks for the clarification. Didn't know that. I do like to use proper terminology on a boat. It sorta' drives me nuts when i see sailing vloggers on youtube REPEATEDLY call the stern the "back".

Not raising the roof 55", raising the main floor 55 inches. She will have a "catamaran-style" saloon/ coach roof, with all the typical saloon accoutrements, when done. No more windgage than any other typical multihull out there so that's the least of my concerns at the moment. I'm not putting in daggers. The keel works just find in helping me track and pont to windward. She's a cruiser, not a racer. But I appreciate any and all suggestions nonetheless. So thank you for that.


Well, thatís great if youíre on a Polynesian outrigger canoe. On our boat itís floats and crossbeams.
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Old 12-03-2018, 23:44   #137
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

My boat was a Piver Lodestar--the hulls are similar to a Horstman in that they have laminar profiles--but once one goes above the waterline, there the similarity ends.

Horstman was better able to deliver usable space in the Tri Stars--getting rid of those beams was a great idea--something Mr Brown's Sea Runners also managed.

Mine had the Cross modifications--a long keel and snap-off keels under the amas, which made her almost level when beached. I carried a couple of pieces of wood to slide under them--to stop the snap--off keels burying in the sand. They were drilled in one end and had lanyards--so they were retrievable when the boat floated off, but fastened from the bow area so the lanyards could not wind around the propeller.

The work Waka or in some languages of the Pacific, Vaka means canoe--a fitting name for the central hull of a trimaran. The Ama I think came from the outriggers of their ocean crossing vessels.

It is possible to put the same sort of cabin on a trimaran as exists on most catamarans. I was going to do the same thing on my vessel--but I just got tired of the constant maintenance that a large older wooden vessel requires, and now she has a younger new owner. Maintenance of an older wooden craft is constant and unrelenting, although not particularly expensive..

For anyone wanting to give it a go--there is a 40 foot Sea Runner for sale in Cairns on Gumtree. It has a four cylinder Perkins diesel and the guy wants about fifteen hundred or offer for it. A lot of tri for the money--and a hell of a lot of work--but another ten grand should do it up almost as new--as long as one does the work oneself and has the time and love of doing it. I think it needs a mast ands sails--but you would have to contact the owner.

Justb sayin'
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Old 13-03-2018, 06:20   #138
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

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I'm not sure what you're asking. Boat weight has a lot to do with design, build, and materials used. After design/ build limits. Useful load can be managed as a matter of preference in how you plan. I'm a bit overkill in that area, well, probably waaaay overkill.

Cross and Horstman, while actually failry fast boats, are curising tris as we all know. Is weight an issue, sure, as it is on all boats. Does that mean you should leave with less food than more? It's a strategic planning choice. I always start a passage with waaaaaayyyy too much food. Mostly because I'm planning for a worse case, "stranded at sea" scenario, where I have to maybe jury-rig my way to destination and I end up taking 2-3 times longer than planned to get there. There are no grocery stores in the big open ocean.


Regarding water. Hmmmm, Watermakers can be finicky. In short, I feel the same way about watermakers as I do about doctors. You need 'em, but I wouldn't completely trust everything they do or say. Get a second opinion. Get a second watermaker. So my strategy with long open-ocean passages at the moment is to upload a certain amount of "emergency" rationing drinking water, as store for emergency use. Usually another 30-40 gallons in various jusggs stored down low. We don't tap into that bank unless and until absolutely necessary. So the goal there is to end the passage WITH all that water. Once I get a second watemaker installed, I'll scale back my emergency planning. But WMs and the associated maintenance can cost a lot of money. It may just be more fiscally prudent to carry extra water and rely on one WM, then accept the 1 kt slower boat speed as a result of carrying that extra weight.

So choose a boat that will give you a decent payload.

I have plenty to worry about on a passage. The last thing I want to concern myself with is not enough food or water. That's an easy equation to solve. Bring more. If weight is still such an issue for you, just start to lighten the load 3-4 days out from destination.

During my last passage I was loaded right to the red tape above the waterline. I had more issues slowing the boat down than I did trying to make more speed.
i guess i didn't ask my question in an understandable manner. i admit i rambled. So i will try again

The Cross spreadsheet lists two types of weights. Fixed weights and variable weights. Fixed weights are engine and fuel, electronic gear, dinghy, extra anchors, batteries, and extra sails etc. Variable weights are on a per person per week basis. He lists 300-425 lbs per person/week. The weight of the people wont change between a one week trip and a four week trip. So that is not variable. The weight of the clothes will not change between a one week trip and a four week trip, unless the trip is between the artic and the tropics . So what is left is the weight of the food and water. (leaving aside the topic of the watermaker for a moment). Now water weighs about 8 1/3 lbs per gallon. Two gallons a day/person seems generous to me. i used to work outside all day in 100 degree F weather, and two gallons of water was more than i could drink. But two gallons weighs 16 2/3 lbs times seven days makes 117 lbs of water per person per week. Person weighs 150lbs, clothes weigh 50 lbs. Can food weigh 100 lbs/person per week? Dunno but lets use the figure. So what do we have? 117 +150 + 50+ 100 = 417 lbs per person for the first week. But the second week, we don't have to count the clothes or the weight of the person so that only leaves 217 lbs/person/week. And remember we used a very generous weight for the water. We can bathe in salt water and just rinse in fresh. Does that take a gallon? Don't think so. Do we need to bathe every day? At sea, where is the dirt that we need to wash off? So it is very likely that we would only need a gallon/person/day of water. That makes a big difference in the weight of per person per day.

So, i conclude that the first week we must budget 2 weeks of water, the weight of the person and the clothes, and food. This comes out to 117lbs water + 150 lbs person + 50 lbs clothes + 100lbs = 417 lbs

The second and subsequent weeks we must budget 1 week of water, and food. This equals 58 lbs water + 100 lbs food = 158 lbs

Total for two weeks = 575 lbs per person

So in two weeks we are already under the minimum figure that Cross uses AND WE INCLUDED THE WEIGHT OF THE PERSON.

So back to my question: must we really figure 300-425 lbs/person/week?

Secondly, Mark Johnson has used the same watermaker with the same membrane for something like 20 years

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1131034

i suspect that it is like a lot of things, people don't know how to properly use and install the equipment and it takes a generation to get the common knowledge of the technology into society so that things work reliably.

i see a watermaker as a TOP priority and i intend to learn as much about them as i can before i install one, so that i can get the same results a Mark. So with a watermaker we can reduce the weight/person/week significantly. What does a watermaker weigh? 100 lbs max? dunno but 100 lbs is only 12 gallons of water. That's a lot of weight saving.

Why all the emphasis on weight? Is it about speed? NO! Its about safety. Trimarans are safe not because of heavy ballast in the keel, but "au contraire monsieur", because they are light and rise over the waves. We need to keep the trimarans light so that we are safe on the sea. Thats why i harp on the subject of weight.
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Old 13-03-2018, 06:41   #139
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

So to continue about Norm Cross' spreadsheet for figuring the size of trimaran needed. You take the weight of the gear, water, food and supplies that are in excess over basic daysailing gear and multiplies it by 2.85 and that gives you the displacement of the trimaran needed. You then take that displacement to another chart with three curves and determine the length of boat needed for racing, cruising or racer/cruiser (fast cruiser). In my case, using his figures (not my own on the above post) i need a 10,500 lb displacement trimaran, or about 40-42 foot LOA

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Old 13-03-2018, 10:12   #140
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Can't says as I disagree with you, Jon. I would add that a tri is gong to rise over the waves as any multihull will and that's good and not so good. Good in smooth conditions, but "pitchy" in a big sea. Oh well, that's the tradeoff with monohulls. I'll take the pitching over healing (pitching meaning a bow-to stern hobby-horse type of rocking). But it does get to me after a while. Then again, just slowing down a little can make an immense differece in ride quality. Reagrding the safety aspect of it, well my perspective, or spin, is that the righting moment is much higher on a cat vs a trimaran. Neel writes about this on his website:

http://www.neel-trimarans.com/why-neel/

He states:

"Let’s consider both the trimaran and the catamaran heeling by 12į, which is the safety angle not to be exceeded on a catamaran.

As shown in the graphics, the Righting moment (GZ) is much higher on the catamaran than on the trimaran.

A high GZ means more brutal and uncomfortable seakeeping.

At this angle of heel the catamaran’s GZ is double that of the trimaran.

Therefore, sailing the trimaran is much smoother than sailing the catamaran.

The trimaran has less roll motion than the catamaran, as the center of buoyancy is never far downwind like on a catamaran.

Again, centered weight is the key to success and comfort.

In fact, all significant heavy equipment is located in the main central hull on a trimaran whereas it is distributed half and half in each hull on a catamaran."


I think his last point rings home with me the most. I don't think my boat will sail as smooth as he claims, vs a cat (maybe his design will), but I don't heel more than 5 degrees either (more like 2)... until that odd wave tries to roll me. But the 200% bouyancy factor of the leeward ama usually kicks in so any excess heel doesn't last that long anyway (mere seconds).

To answer your question on weight, I think you're correct and most passages won't take two weeks so there's that to factor in. I guess it depends on the route and how many islands you bypass in the process.

Regarding the WM and ROs. Yeah, I read all the posts from people who have never had problems with the WM. Good for them. But then I talk to the professionals who repair the systems. The constant theme from them is how finicky each system can ultimately be. Once you get them going, and use them, they can be quite handy and a very useful piece of kit. But just be aware there are many components to the system and therefore a lot can go wrong. I've had something as simple as the intake pump pressure switch(diaphragm pumps) corrode and freeze up, prefilters blow out, clark pumps fail and of course a bad membrane. I carry spares so I always fix it but then carry spares for everything adds a lot to the weight equation as well.

Just saying, have a plan for water if your RO WM fails. Doesn't have to be as hardcore as mine. Just a plan because someone else's experience isn't always the same as yours. And I know you know this... just reminding. Oh, and regarding WM weiight? I can't see the entire system as weighng any more than 100 lbs, probably closer to 70, well for my system anyway. My spectra manual states that there is 2 gallons in the system at any given time so I guess if you add the water in the system then yes, close to 100 lbs. But that's for everything. 2 intake pumps, the clark pump, hoses, pre and flush filters, accumulator. Everything.

Back to weight vs performance, it's funny to see all the marketing literature and videos on modern cats, even the new tris like Neels. Not one in the open ocean with typical swell. IF all you do is sail downwind, or in a bay or in the lee of an island, that's fine. For me, I'm often 600-1000 NM from the nearest land. That is what I would call typical conditions. So when I'm reviewing a boat I'd like to see more on what a typical passage is like. I did see one video of a Lagoon or FP 52 doing 20 kts in a Force 4 blow but it was downwind... easist and least stressful point of sail. Not saying it can't be done in these boats. There are thousands at ports all over the world so they obsiously crossed the open ocean to get there. Just saying it isn't as smooth as the pics or videos on line lead one to believe. You can only minimize pitch so much for the sea state. So while light is the name of the game in any multihulls, cetainly in tris, riding over the waves vs through as a monohulls does, has it's draw backs in anything but a reach or downwind. I guess that's my point.

I remember last year when I approached my sailmaker about a furling spinnaker. We were going over options for the build, I showed him pics of the Colligo Marine setup that John Franta sent me, and he goes, "yeah, but that unfurl is in smooth conditions." He reminds me not one video out there shows how unfurling spinnakers in real-world conditions. He wasn't saying it can't be done, just that it's not as easy as the marketing guys would like your to believe. I think that can be said true of boat design. His point, btw, was that he didn't want to get involved in a custom project without reminding me of the potential pitfalls. That it might not furl/ unfurl in 25-35 kts the way I'm expecting. I thought his point was fair. I later went with an ATN sock set-up. Two spinnakers with a sock. I would get one sock to actually hoist more than 50%. Both got snagged, so I went back to the traditional hoist and douse of spinnakers. Lots of work, way more risk, but until I can find a reliable system, that's where I'm at in that regard.

Sorry for the thread drift.
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Old 13-03-2018, 15:10   #141
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

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I later went with an ATN sock set-up. Two spinnakers with a sock. I would get one sock to actually hoist more than 50%. Both got snagged, so I went back to the traditional hoist and douse of spinnakers. Lots of work, way more risk, but until I can find a reliable system, that's where I'm at in that regard.
Question:

Two spinnakers in one sock, two spinnakers at once or two spinnakers on the boat?

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Old 17-03-2018, 01:42   #142
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

I have been tracking the market for cruising trimarans for sale.

I define them as any trimaran with living accommodations and a diesel engine. Yes I know some cruising trimarans have gasoline engines, I have included a few.

The attached spread sheet ranges from $2mm down to $37k.

Since I last updated this sheet, I was able to find about 10 new advertisements. A roughly equal number either sold or stopped renewing their advertising.

Of greatest interest to me is the larger trimarans. Owners of these have largely held their prices firm. In fact some seem to have gone up in price because the dollar has dropped.

Smaller trimaran owners seem to be the most anxious to sell and tended to drop their prices.

There are a few Neel on the list, however I don't track the roughly 16 ones already available on the market. It seems some of these are being resold after a very limited ownership after taking a healthy hit on resale value.
Attached Files
File Type: xls Trimarans for sale March 2018.xls (39.5 KB, 121 views)
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Old 17-03-2018, 22:35   #143
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Trimarans are quite seaworthy as long as one remembers that they feel a lot safer than they are--and it is possible to become dangerously vulnerable without realising anything is amiss.

Steep seas and surfing down them is asking for a pitchpole--so rig a drogue and rig it early if one wishes to stay safe and has the sea room in which to do so.
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Old 17-03-2018, 23:16   #144
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

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Trimarans are quite seaworthy as long as one remembers that they feel a lot safer than they are--and it is possible to become dangerously vulnerable without realising anything is amiss.

Steep seas and surfing down them is asking for a pitchpole--so rig a drogue and rig it early if one wishes to stay safe and has the sea room in which to do so.
When I purchased my vessel there were both Jordan series drogues and Paratech sea anchors aboard.

Despite reading Pardee's book cover to cover I went around asking and asking again, how do you switch from running on drogues to standing on a sea anchor.

I just couldn't imagine if conditions had gone so bad that it is possible to switch between the two.

I finally had someone tell me I was right. It would be next to impossible to hual in the drogues, turn the vessel into the waves and then set the sea anchor.

In other words you would have to have made the election to weather the storm out on one or the other before the storm hit.

Thoughts?
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Old 18-03-2018, 15:01   #145
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

On my spread sheet of cruising trimarans I forgot to include a link to Rapido Trimarans built in Vietnam.

A new 60ft one runs $1.55mm.

They are designed for speed and have the galley area up high with big windows.

The promo in the factory website shows an electric induction cook top. The version on yacht world shows a diesel stove and oven.

No air conditioning?

Incredible speed.

And big maintenance rig.
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Old 18-03-2018, 16:10   #146
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

One can rig a drogue over the bow, the forequarter or the stern. How well the vessel rides on it depends upon the design of the vessel and the seas experienced--and how much line one has and what that line is made from.

Which brings me to the question--if there is sea room--use a drogue. If your sea room is limited to a few miles at best--a seam anchor might be better.

A drogue is not designed to stop the vessel--but to allow it to keep a relative position against wind or sea or both--since waves generally surge down wind.

The drogue line is also important. I use nylon 20mm diameter with a cats paw loop and thimbles spliced into it at half boat length and at boat length intervals, so that the line is controllable by another line which can be soft or hard shackled to the main line eyes. In this way one can move the deployed line to the quarter, or even move the drogue from the stern to the bow or vice versa using the halyard winches to take the strain. Pulling a deployed drogue (or sea anchor) against wind and waves in a storm situation by hand is not possible. Unless the drogue is secured elsewhere before one releases tension on it, it will probably be lost.

The cheapest drogue you can get (since they are free) is a series on increasingly larger vehicle tyres. Three or four will to--smallest goes nearest to boat--and they also serve as fenders. Against that is the space they takle up hanging against the rail or stacked on deck--and they are unsightly even if painted white as they should be.

Fit them together using whatever is to hand, but tied firmly so that is does not chafe with movement.
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Old 19-03-2018, 04:17   #147
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

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The drogue line is also important. I use nylon 20mm diameter with a cats paw loop and thimbles spliced into it at half boat length and at boat length intervals, so that the line is controllable by another line which can be soft or hard shackled to the main line eyes. In this way one can move the deployed line to the quarter, or even move the drogue from the stern to the bow or vice versa using the halyard winches to take the strain. Pulling a deployed drogue (or sea anchor) against wind and waves in a storm situation by hand is not possible. Unless the drogue is secured elsewhere before one releases tension on it, it will probably be lost.
Do you have pics? This really interests me.
blessings
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Old 19-03-2018, 13:11   #148
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

I am not aboard. Here is a sample I just made up to give you an idea--but make the cat's paw toes longer than this--and when finished serve them with binding for look-nice and a bit more friction.

Alternatively one can make a loop in a shorter length of rope and splice it into the main line using TWO splices one above the other. This method is probably even better, but the thimble must first be spliced into the loop of the short rope.

After one has altered the position of a drogue or sea anchor, the strain should be returned to the main line. Wet nylon does not hold a short splice well, so the longer your splices the better.

I am sorry I can not post the picture. The program asks for a URL and there is not one as I do not have a website.
.
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Old 19-03-2018, 15:13   #149
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Roger Simpson is still stealing oxygen as far as I know--and his designs are available from an agent in Australia. Whether or not the Liahona is among them I do not know.
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Old 19-03-2018, 15:16   #150
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Re: No love for trimarans - why?

Still no joy posting my pics--but here is how to make the splice. Because the drogue line is nylon (more stretch and very strong) and chafes easily, I use thimbles in the loop which can be bound in for extra security.

Anyway--this is not me--but this is the quick splice I use.


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